Ojos Bables (?)

Vocabulary & grammar of Asturian & Bable, comparisons with Castilian.<br>
Vocabulario y gramática de asturianu y bable, comparaciones con castellano

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El Tampeno
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Ojos Bables (?)

Post by El Tampeno »

Hi....this is El Tampeno, your newest member...my introduction will follow soon. I have a question concerning Bable......my grandmother often referred to how they would speak it at home before she emigrated in 1909 to Tampa.....however my dad,grandfather and several cousins had very blue eyes and the old Asturianos always called them "ojos bables". Can anyone shed some light on that connection? I do read Castellano so if anyone prefers to answer directly in Castellano that's OK. Thanks.

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Traducción de Terechu

Hola ... soy el Tampeño, vuestro miembro más reciente ... mi presentación seguirá pronto. Tengo una pregunta relativa al bable... mi abuela a menudo mencionaba cómo lo hablaban en casa antes de emigrar a Tampa en 1909... sin embargo mi padre, abuelo y varios primos tenían los ojos muy azules y los asturianos viejos siempre les llamaban "ojos bables". ¿Alguíen puede arrojar luz sobre esta conexión? Leo en castellano, así que si alguien prefiere contestar directamente en castellano, a mí me vale. Gracias.
Tony Carreno/Tampa Florida
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Bob
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Post by Bob »

I don't have a firm answer to your question, and have never heard that usage before, but my guess is that there has been an extension of one of the words for the Asturian language (they are bable and asturianu) to describe an eye color that they associated with some of the people in Asturias or that they felt was particularly common in Asturias. Perhaps some of our members in Asturias have better information.

Bob Martinez

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Traducción de Terechu

No tengo una contestación definitiva a tu pregunta, ni he oído nunca ese uso, pero supongo que ha habido una extensión de una de las palabras de la lengua asturiana (son bable y asturianu) para describir un color de ojos que ellos asociaban a alguna gente de Asturias, o que consideraban particularmente común en Asturias. Quizás alguno de nuestros miembros en Asturias tenga una información mejor.

Bob Martínez
Last edited by Bob on Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Carlos
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"Ojos bables"

Post by Carlos »

Hola, Tony, saludos desde Asturies.

Vamos a ver, lo primero es aclararte que aquí la gente tiene los ojos de muchos colores diferentes, azules, grises, verdes y marrones. Lo que no abunda en absoluto son los ojos negros. Lo mismo ocurre con el color del pelo, lo hay negro, castaño oscuro, castaño claro, rubio y pelirrojo. La tez suele ser más bien blanca y pálida, aunque no tan sonrosada como en los países nórdicos, pero sí más que por ejemplo en Andalucía.

Aclarado esto, decirte que nunca en toda mi vida escuché a nadie hablar de "ojos bables", entendiendo la palabra "bable" como un color o una descripción. Es más, estaría por asegurarte que nunca hubo ningún asturiano que pronunciara esa expresión :shock:

Pero yo aún diría más. La propia palabra "bable", que hace referencia a nuestra lengua, no es algo popular, al menos no históricamente. Los mejores hablantes de asturiano, cuando eran interrogados acerca del nombre que daban a su forma de hablar la llamaban "asturianu" y otras palabras menos frecuentes, pero no "bable" ni "bables". En toda la literatura antigua no aparece tampoco esa denominación para la lengua asturiana, y el único que la empleó fue Gaspar Melchor de Jovellanos, a finales del siglo XVIII. Hay varias teorías acerca del posible significado del término, la más generalizada la que opina que posiblemente sea un préstamo del inglés "to babble". A partir de Jovellanos, la palabra bable es usada en círculos minoritarios cultos. Por ejemplo, en la revista "La Ilustración Gallega y Asturiana" (creo recordar que de finales del siglo XIX, principios del XX) se habla de "bable asturiano y bable gallego". A raíz de la desaparición de la dictadura de Franco, con la llegada de la democracia, aparecen defensores de la lengua asturiana, como la asociación cívica llamada Conceyu Bable, que reclama "bable nes escueles" (que la lengua asturiana sea enseñada en la escuela) Empiezan también una serie de enfrentamientos entre los partidarios de su oficialidad y sus detractores, sobre todo en los periódicos, de modo que la palabra bable empieza a "sonar" cada vez más en los medios de comunicación. Hoy en día, su uso está ya generalizado, pero sólo como sinónimo de "lengua asturiana", nada que ver con ningún color.

Yo sospecho que lo que tú describes es meramente un fenómeno aislado, en el ambiente de tu familia, quizás una expresión poética en sentido figurado, algo similar a decir "tiene los ojos del color original de nuestros antepasados asturianos" :?:

Por cierto, ¿tienes una gran nariz? Eso sí que es muy típico de Asturias, y de todo el norte en general, :lol:

Saludos.

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Translated by Terechu

Hello Tony, greetings from Asturies,

Let’s see, first of all I would like to explain that people here have eyes of many different colours, blue, grey, green and brown. What’s not abundant at all are black eyes. The same goes for hair colour, there’s black, dark grown, light brown, blond and red. The complexion is rather white and pale, but not as rosy as in the northern European countries, although lighter than in Andalusia for instance.

Having clarified this, I would say that I never in my life heard anyone speak of “ojos bables”, using the word “bable” as a colour or description. What’s more, I would even go so far as to assure you that no Asturian ever used that expression.

I would go even further. The word “bable” in itself, which refers to our language, is not something popular, at least not historically. Those speaking best asturiano, when questioned about the name of their language, would call it “asturianu” and other less frequent words, but not bable or bables. Neither does this denomination of the Asturian language appear in any of the ancient literature and the only one who used that term was Gaspar M. de Jovellanos, at the end of the 18th Century. There are several theories about the possible meaning of the term, the most extended one is that it is borrowed from the English word “babble”. Starting with Jovellanos the word bable is used in educated minority circles. For instance, the magazine “La Ilustración Gallega y Asturiana” (I believe at the end of 19th, beginning of the 20th Century, if I’m not mistaken) speaks of Asturian bable and Galician bable. Upon the disappearance of the Franco regime and the arrival of democracy, there appear defenders of the Asturian language, like the civic association called Conceyu Bable, which demands “Bable n’es escueles” (that Asturian be tought in school). There are also a number of confrontations between those favouring it’s becoming the official language and those against it, especially in the newspapers, so that the word bable starts to be heard more and more in the media. Nowadays its use is widespread, but only as a synonym of Lengua Asturiana, nothing to do with any colour.

I suspect that what you are describing is merely an isolated phenomenon within your family circle, maybe some poetic expression in figurative speech, as if to say: “he has the eyes of our Asturian ancestors’ original colour.”

By the way, do you have a big nose? That is very typical in Asturias and throughout the north of Spain in general.
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Art
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Do Asturians have big noses?

Post by Art »

Hmm. I don't know about the big noses, Carlos. You certainly don't have one. I don't think of Asturians as having huge noses. To me they tend to be a very handsome people. (Then again, I'm very biased!) Is this a common perception of Asturians?

Still, if anyone were to stare at their nose long enough in the mirror, it would eventually seem huge.

Although I won't suggest that we take a poll on my friend Carlos' nose, you get a good look for yourself here:
http://musette.free.fr/stchart/stch98pc.htm.
That's Carlos in the last photo on the page.

I was going to say that you can take a peak at mine on the About Us page, but you can hardly see me. Hiding, I guess, or hiding a big nose! You can see me better in an image at the top of the page here:
http://www.arteasturias.com/. I'm the one on the right. And you can check out my grandfather's and my mother's noses, too!
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Terechu
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Post by Terechu »

Hello Tony and welcome,

Pay Carlos no mind, just because he's got a big nose doesn't mean we all have one, too :mrgreen:
In fact my mother's family, who are all from the Nalón valley and have been for centuries, are all round-faced and snub-nosed.

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Hola Tony y bienvenido,

No le hagas caso a Carlos, que sólo porque él tenga la nariz grande no significa que tengamos los demás también :mrgreen:
De hecho mi familia materna, que son todos del valle del Nalón y lo han sido durante siglos, son todos de cara redonda y nariz respingona.


Saludos
Terechu
El Tampeno
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:06 am
Location: Tampa

Post by El Tampeno »

Hi Terechu...Thanks very much for your feed-back and your wonderful
translation of my posting. One of my goals is to study Castellano so that
I may achieve complete fluency. We spoke a mixture of Spanish/Sicilian/
English at home (maternal grandparents are Sicilian).....never studied Castellano but can converse comfortably and can read/write it moderately........I am always impressed by anyone as multi-lingual as
you.

My abuela was from Villanueva de Pereda, about 4 or 5 miles outside of Grado (west/Southwest). Many of our neighbors in the old neighborhood were also from that immediate area....villages such as Alcubiella and Llantrales, but there were Tampenos from all parts of Asturias.

Re: Carlos' response.....I enjoyed his feedback and I'm very impressed with his passion and enthusiasm. Perhaps my memory is fading (I'm 55 years old) but I'm pretty sure the term "ojos Bables" was used. One of my cousins, Bob Martinez was Governor of Florida from 1987-1990 and made an official visit to Asturias during that time...I think one of the reporters covering the trip referred to that term during his visit to Villanueva...but I could be very wrong!!!

Thanks for your note...looking forward to hearing from you again.


Hasta la proxima vez!!!!
Tony

PS....None of my immediate family had big noses, however a branch of the family through marriage, apellido "Tamargo" por cierto tenian narices
grandissimas.......a ellos les llamaban "los narizones" o "los tiburones"....Ojala que no vean este commentario!!! That's my first example of my very bad Castellano.
Tony Carreno/Tampa Florida
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