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Catalan success, Ukrainian (and Asturian) foundering

 
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Art
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Catalan success, Ukrainian (and Asturian) foundering Reply with quote

The "Cross Currents" column on page 7 compares Catalan and Ukrainian success in maintaining their culture. (It's in English.) The brief history of Catalan attempts to preserve their independence and language is particularly interesting.

In contrast with the Catalans, the lack of success in Asturias is very sad.

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La columna "Cross Currents" en la página 7 compara el éxito los catalanes y los ucranios en el mantenimiento de su cultura. (Está escrito en inglés.) La breve historia de los intentos catalanes para preservar su independencia y su lengua es particularmente interesante.

Por contraste con los catalanes, la falta de exito en Asturias es tristísima.
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is
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked on page 1 of the Ukrainian Weekly (July 19) and couldn't see the article comparing Ukrainian and Catalan cultural preservation. Can you copy and paste the original article, Art? Sounds interesting...

One thing about Ukraine is its cultural split. The Ukrainian communities in the US and Canada are mostly descended from West Ukraine, where people actually speak Ukrainian (close to Polish) and are quite nationalistic. In East Ukraine, they are Russian speakers, including Crimea, and culturally closer to Moscow.

The kind of anti-Asturian sentiment you often find in Asturias is of a different nature. I think it's in the schooling and years of telling people that their language/traditions are symptoms of backwardness rather than a culture worth preserving. This attitude cuts across contemporary Asturians, although people in the countryside, I would argue, are less receptive to this kind of prejudice.
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Art
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I wasn't able to copy the article. I messed with it for quite a while. I might be able to get an image of it. How's this?

It's on page seven, not page one.

I wonder if there isn't a cultural divide in Asturias, given the large number of immigrants from elsewhere in Spain living in the large cities?







Lo siento, no pude copiar el artículo. Gasté con éste más tiempo que quiero decirte. Podría ser capaz de obtener una imagen del artículo. ¿Vale estás?

Está en la página siete, no en página una.

¿Me pregunto si no hay una división cultural en Asturias, dado el gran número de inmigrantes de otras partes de España quiene viven en las grandes ciudades?
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is
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the full article, Art. I thought this was interesting in Andrew Sorokowski's piece:

"In the late 19th century, a commercial and industrial boom combined with bourgeois optimism, local patriotism and a commitment to social justice to fuel a revival of Catalan culture."

It's always interesting to look into comparisons that may seem far-flung, but often hit on common themes. In the late 19th century, Asturias also rapidly industrialized. But I suspect you'd have to throw out factors like 'bourgeois optimism' and 'local patriotism'. Instead, the workers' consciousness developed an internationalist vein that probably led to a disdain of local traditions, which were left on the wayside as archaic throwbacks. The bourgeois in Asturias, together with the factory workers and miners, did not fuel a revival of Asturian culture. They had the opposite effect.

That legacy, in part, lies at the root of political parties like the Federacion Socialista Asturiana (FSA, the PSOE of Asturias). They think they are more international the more they reject local traditions, languages, etc. It's a weird distortion of Marxism.
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Art
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is wrote:
.... I thought this was interesting in Andrew Sorokowski's piece:

"In the late 19th century, a commercial and industrial boom combined with bourgeois optimism, local patriotism and a commitment to social justice to fuel a revival of Catalan culture."

....

In the late 19th century, Asturias also rapidly industrialized. But I suspect you'd have to throw out factors like 'bourgeois optimism' and 'local patriotism'. Instead, the workers' consciousness developed an internationalist vein that probably led to a disdain of local traditions, which were left on the wayside as archaic throwbacks. The bourgeois in Asturias, together with the factory workers and miners, did not fuel a revival of Asturian culture. They had the opposite effect.

.... [Asturian PSOE] think they are more international the more they reject local traditions, languages, etc. It's a weird distortion of Marxism.

That's an interesting reading, Is.

I'm thinking of what you've said elsewhere about Asturians being self-reviling in terms of their language and culture.

It'd be interesting to know whether Asturians in the late 19th century showed "local patriotism." It could be that even then the language and culture were seen as as being a bad thing: an inheritance from their less educated, agrarian grandparents.

In Catalonia, in contrast, language and culture were a part of the arts and cities, isn't that right? If the 19th century had occurred right after the era of the Preromanesque or if that era of political and cultural dominance had continued longer, perhaps Asturians would have a very different attitude about their language and culture.

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Esa es una interpretación interesante, Is.

Estoy pensando en lo que has dicho en otros temas acerca de la auto-aversión de los asturianos en lo de la lengua y cultura.

Sería interesante saber si los asturianos a fin del siglo 19 mostraron "patriotismo local." Podría ser que incluso entonces el idioma y la cultura se consideran malas: una herencia de sus abuelos menos educados y agrarias.

En Cataluña, por el contrario, el idioma y la cultura eran una parte de las artes y las ciudades, ¿no es cierto? Si el siglo 19 había producido inmediatamente después de la era prerrománica asturiana o si esa era de la dominación política y cultural había durado más tiempo, tal vez los asturianos tendrían hoy una actitud muy distinta acerca de su lengua y su cultura.
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