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New Asturian emigration - Nueva emigración asturiana
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tierradenadie



Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 253
Location: nyc

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: A discrete livelihood Reply with quote

Is wrote:
...

No one doubts that Asturias will be disadvantaged with the new financial plan for Spain’s autonomous regions. It is a federal agreement based on asymmetric considerations, with the more prosperous regions receiving more [tax money] and the less buoyant ones receiving even less. The asymmetry will give rise to inequalities in key areas, such as health and education….


Hola,


¿Cuál es la región más pobre de España?
Donde está Asturias en esta escala¿

Gracias & Griaß eich ~ Peter
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is
Moderator


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GDP per capita (2006)
Source: SADEI (www.sadei.es)

Spain average: €22,260 100%

Andalucia/Andalusia €17,401 78.17%
Aragon €23,707 106.5%
Asturias (Principau d’/Principality of) €19,820 89.04%
Balears (Illes)/Balearic Islands €24,265 109.01%
Canarias/Canary Islands €20,062 90.13%
Cantabria €21,941 98.57%
Castilla y Leon/Castile-Leon €21,160 95.06%
Castilla-La Mancha/Castile-La Mancha €17,672 79.39%
Cataluña/Catalonia €26,279 118.05%
Valencia €20,381 91.56%
Extremadura €15,031 67.52%
Galicia €18,544 83.31%
Madrid €28,747 129.14%
Murcia €18,888 84.85%
Navarra/Navarre €27,856 125.14%
Euzkadi/Basque Country€28,731 129.07%
Rioja (La) €23,571 105.89%
Ceuta €20,558 92.35%
Melilla €20,030 89.98%
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    Art
    Site Admin


    Joined: 17 Feb 2003
    Posts: 4471
    Location: Maryland

    PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Gee, those are large disparities! Thanks, Is.

    -------------------

    ¡Caramba, las disparidades son grandes! Gracias, Is!
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    Llames



    Joined: 11 Jul 2008
    Posts: 120
    Location: Xixón (Asturies)

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hay que decir que las dos comunidades más ricas (País Vasco y Navarra) lo son porque tienen un regimen fiscal diferente a todas las demás del Estado, entre otras cosas. Estas dos comunidades se quedan con todos los impuestos recogidos en su territorio y reciben además el dinero del Estado. A final de año hacen cuentas y simplemente pagan o reciben dinero del Estado dependiendo de unos baremos muy favorables a esas comunidades.

    La razón de este tratamiento diferente fue el de respetar unos derechos forales (es decir un sistema legal diferenciado y propio con cientos de años de antigüedad) y además darles unas mejores condiciones para que se unieran al proyecto común.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It must be said that the two richest communities (Basque Country and Navarra) are the richest because they have a different tax regime to all other State, inter alia. These two communities are left with all the taxes collected on its territory and also receive state money. At year-end they look at the accounts and they simply pay or receive money according to a very favorable table rates at those two communities.

    The reason for this different treatment was to respect the Foral Rights (ie an own separate legal system with hundreds of years old) and give them better conditions to join the joint project.
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    Bob
    Moderator


    Joined: 24 Feb 2003
    Posts: 1725
    Location: Connecticut and Massachusetts

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Here's some recent data for the EEUU.

    http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104652.html

    Much of the reality of income is relative, however. For example, the cost of housing in the lower income states is much lower than that in the higher income states.
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    is
    Moderator


    Joined: 15 Aug 2006
    Posts: 837
    Location: Yaoundé

    PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The Economist this week (Jan. 27, 2009) had an analysis piece on the impact of the global recession on Spain's economy. Here's an excerpt in which the writer mentions the fact that the country 'had it too good' for too long. Asturias is a big, fat bubble within that narrative, now reliant on handouts from Madrid.

    "The full social impact of the recession will kick in after the summer, when a first wave of jobless run out of unemployment pay and start receiving less generous welfare handouts. The Socialist government of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, which was re-elected in March 2008, may then feel more popular discontent. For now claims that things will be rosier at year’s end may have lulled some into a false sense of security. Spain’s strawberry farmers, in need of pickers, have gone to Morocco to hire thousands of labourers this month. Spaniards had it good for so long that many will not consider low-paid agricultural work. That may change by the time the strawberries need picking again next year."

    For the full text of the article:

    http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12987582&source=hptextfeature
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    Art
    Site Admin


    Joined: 17 Feb 2003
    Posts: 4471
    Location: Maryland

    PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That strawberry example could apply in the US, too. It has often astounded me that people are so adverse to manual labor here. Many of our ancestors made a good living as manual laborers. One result of our hiring immigrants to do our manual work is that the relative level of wages have declined for manual as compared to other kinds of work, a fact that makes those jobs even less desirable now.

    ----------------------

    El ejemplo de las fresas se podría aplicar a los EE.UU. también. A menudo me sorprende de que la gente aquí es tan en contra de las labores manuales. Muchos de nuestros antepasados ganaban una buena vida por labor manual. Uno de los resultados de la contratación de inmigrantes para hacer este labor manual es que el nivel relativo de los salarios ha disminuido para la manual, en comparación con otros tipos de trabajo, un hecho que hace estos puestos de trabajo ya menos deseables ahora.
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    tierradenadie



    Joined: 27 Oct 2008
    Posts: 253
    Location: nyc

    PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Is wrote:
    Asturias is a big, fat bubble within that narrative, now reliant on handouts from Madrid.... " That may change by the time the strawberries need picking again next year."




    ¿qúe pensáis que va a pasar en asturias? la gente que perderá trabajo y tendrá que vivir, sobre-vivir, con mucho menos dinero, ¿van a ser expulsados de la región?
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    Llames



    Joined: 11 Jul 2008
    Posts: 120
    Location: Xixón (Asturies)

    PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Si Asturies sigue con su tradición, no pasará nada. La gente seguirá trabajando, malviviendo en muchos casos, y emigrando. Luego, en la distancia, se sentirán mucho más asturianos y tendrán señaldá de la tierra.

    Desde el siglo XIX hasta nuestros días la cosa no ha cambiado mucho, está en nuestro ADN.

    ----
    Trans. Is

    If Asturies goes the traditional way, nothing will happen. People will still work, but often in underemployed situations, and emigrating. Then, when they are far from their homeland their Asturian homesickness will kick in.

    Since the 19th century and until today, not much has changed. You could almost argue it's in our DNA.
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    tierradenadie



    Joined: 27 Oct 2008
    Posts: 253
    Location: nyc

    PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Llames wrote:
    Si Asturies sigue con su tradición, no pasará nada.


    pues, ¿qué podría pasar a cambiar ese statu quo? ¿qúe tiene que pasar in tu opinión { y otros en este foro }.

    p.d.:
    podría pasar que el fin todo la gente aborigen se ha ido asturias y solo extranjeros como yo, some damn kraut, se quedan? { na denn prost und mahlzeit ! }

    ---
    Trans. Is

    So what could change the status quo or business as usual? What needs to happen in your opinion (and that of other people in this discussion group)?

    p.s.
    Could it happen that all the natives just abandon Asturias and foreigners, like myself, some damn kraut, move in to stay? (In that case, cheers and Mahlzeit!)
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    Llames



    Joined: 11 Jul 2008
    Posts: 120
    Location: Xixón (Asturies)

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Llevan 30 años intentando cambiar este ciclo en Asturies y no han podido (o querido). Creo que nadie tiene una solución mágica, y además, es difícil cambiar la inercia.

    Me comentaba un amigo que estudió Administración de Empresas que en la Universidad de Oviedo les decían que tenían que licenciarse 1.000 estudiantes para conseguir el mismo número de emprendedores que conseguían en Barcelona con 100...los asturianos estamos acostumbrados a que Papa Estado provéa y si no nos da lo suficiente para vivir emigramos.

    En una encuesta de un periódico de Asturias entre universitarios más de un 75% quería llegar a ser funcionario, así es difícil crear un tejido empresarial que genere puestos de trabajo suficientes...no sé tampoco tengo una respuesta a tu pregunta.

    Desde hace unos años vienen instalándose en Asturies bastantes ingleses, alemanes, amercianos y franceses. Generalmente su trabajo se puede hacer desde fuera de la oficina o montan hoteles rurales (hay unos cuantos en la zona de donde es Is). Aún así son pocos si los comparamos con toda la población de Asturies (es la región española con menos extranjeros) así que no hay peligro de invasión Wink


    Si algún día llegáis a ser muchos, volveremos desde el extranejero con nuestras fesorias de combate y os devolveremos al mar al grito de "Foriatoooooos" Laughing

    ----
    Trans. Is

    They've been trying for 30 years to reverse this cycle in Asturies and have not been able to (or have not wanted to reverse it). I don't think any one has the silver bullet and it's also hard to crank people out of their inertia.

    A friend of mine who studied business management in the University of Oviedo told me that in Asturias they needed to graduate 1,000 students to generate the same number of entrepreneurs that the University of Barcelona generated with 100 students. We Asturians are mollycoddled by Big Sugar Daddy (The Spanish State) for sustenance. And if it doesn't provide enough, we simply emigrate.

    In a newspaper poll carried out by an Asturian newspaper, more than 75% of the respondents wanted to be a State employee. It's hard to encourage entrepreneurs to start SMEs that then create enough jobs. I don't know, I may not have an answer to your question.

    In the last few years, many British, German, American and French citizens have settled in Asturias. Generally, they can telecommute or they set up country inns (there are a few already where Is is from). But even then, the numbers are low compared to the overall population. In fact, Asturies is the region of Spain with the lowest number of foreigners. So there's no risk of outright invasion.

    But should you one day increase in number, we'll come back from abroad with our combat hoes and we'll chase you to the sea crying "Foreigneeerrss" Laughing Wink
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    is
    Moderator


    Joined: 15 Aug 2006
    Posts: 837
    Location: Yaoundé

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Llames wrote:
    Desde hace unos años vienen instalándose en Asturies bastantes ingleses, alemanes, amercianos y franceses. Generalmente su trabajo se puede hacer desde fuera de la oficina o montan hoteles rurales (hay unos cuantos en la zona de donde es Is).


    Son poucos, la verda, pero vei tiempu que trabayan alemanes, austriacos ya holandeses en conceyos cumo Ayande, Pezos, Bual ya Villayon. La mayor parte d'el.los en casas d'aldea.

    Na industria maderera na l.linde d'Ayande con Tineu tamen trabayan marroquinos, pero poucos tamen. Xente foriato vien sobremanera nos meses de brano, de Republica Dominicana, Puerto Rico ya Mexico. Senon, cumo diz Llames, ia xente urbano del centro d'Asturias.

    Falanon en 2006 de mercar aldeas nos Oscos (Santalla, peimeque foi) pa pensionistas norteamericanos. Nun escuitara mas nada d'eso ya paeciame mui raro que xente d'Ohio quixera pousase pal oucidente d'Asturias!

    ----

    They're very few and far between, really. But it is true that there have been German, Austrian and Dutch families moving into counties like Ayande (Allande), Pezos (Pesoz), Bual (Boal) and Villayon. Most of them work in country inns.

    In the lumber business on the border between Ayande and Tineu (Tineo), there are also some Moroccans. Most foreigners, however, come during the summer, especially from the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Mexico. Otherwise, like Llames suggested, it's mostly city slickers from central Asturias.

    There was talk back in 2006 about buying entire villages in the Ozcos (I think in the county of Santalla d'Ozcos) for American retirees. But I never heard about the plan again and thought it odd that people from Ohio would ever decide to settle in West Asturias!


    Last edited by is on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Llames



    Joined: 11 Jul 2008
    Posts: 120
    Location: Xixón (Asturies)

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Pues fae poco púsose a la venta una aldea en Bual. Publicolo La Voz de Asturias el 2 de febreru. La aldea ye Llanteiro, ¿suénate, Is?

    http://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noticias/noticia.asp?pkid=474192

    A ver si te animes, Is, y en vez d'una granxa, merques el pueblu enteru Wink
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    is
    Moderator


    Joined: 15 Aug 2006
    Posts: 837
    Location: Yaoundé

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Llames wrote:
    La aldea ye Llanteiro, ¿suénate, Is?


    Si que me suena, pero you conozo namai el Llanteiro d'Eilao (Illano, en castel.lan).

    El Llanteiro d'Eilao ta no Navia p'arriba cerca de Xanxuyan, ya mas cerca del conceyu d'Ayande (Allande). Eiqui vei una semeya que cuido ia de l'aldea de Bustelo, xunto a Llanteiro. Hai una casa d'aldea prehi que siempre quixe ver: Avalon.

    L'aldea que ta'n venta ia'l Llanteiro de Bual, riu p'abaxo ya frente a As Llenadas.

    Senon, el llanteiro ou l.lanteiru n'asturianu quier decir la raiz de la berza...


    ----

    Yes, it rings a bell, but I only know the village of Llanteiro in County Eilao (Illano, in Spanish).

    The Llanteiro of Eilao is further up the Navia River opposite Xanxuyan and bordering the northwestern part of County Ayande (Allande). Here's a picture of what I think is the village of Bustelo, which is next to Llanteiro. There's a mysterious country inn hidden there somewhere where I've always wanted to go. It's called Avalon.

    The Llanteiro that's up for sale, according to the newspaper clipping, is in Bual opposite As Llenadas.

    Otherwise, the word l.lanteiru or llanteiro means the stalk of the kale plant in Asturian...


    Last edited by is on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Villamil



    Joined: 29 May 2008
    Posts: 42
    Location: Uviéu

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Que la mocedá asturiana, concretaumente magar que nun solu, nagua por facese funcionaria ye pernomal. Ente'l vezu de les aides estatales que faen munchu por aguiyar el folgar y les poques facilidaes que'l propiu estáu da pa emprincipar un negociu y facelu espoxigar, lo más cenciel.lu ye dir pa l'alministración.

    Peru ya digo, nun somos los asturianos los únicos. Ye menester almitir que ser empresariu n'esti pais ye dificil asgaya, sobretou si quies facer daqué con veru porgüeyu pal desendolcamientu económicu y non fumu. Lu del entrepreneruship ye una pallabrina mui prestosa de dicir, sobretou nos xeitos académicos, peru la realidá nun ye prestosa dafechu.

    D'otra parte, trabayar no seutor privau pué dar vergüeña poles sos condiciones d'emplegu. La precariedá ye'l pan nuesu de ca dia. L'estáu ufre seguridá y unes condiciones non tan lleonines.

    ----
    Trans. Is

    It's not surprising that young Asturians strive to become civil servants or State employees. It has been encouraged by State subsidies that have instead made people lazy and by poor structural aid for people who want to start a business. At the end of the day it's easier to go work for the State administration.

    But Asturians are not the only ones with this attitude. Becoming an entrepreneur in this country is very difficult, especially if what you want to do is supposedly to help overall economic development and not just create a smokescreen.

    Entrepreneurship is a nice enough word, especially in academic circles. But reality can be ugly.

    On the other hand, working in the private sector can be humiliating because of the work conditions. The lack of any type of security has become all too common. The State is a source of security and somewhat less brutal work conditions.
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