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The Lone Ranger and Tonto

 
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pepe buylla



Rexistrau: 01 Xun 2006
Mensaxes: 34

MensaxePublicao: Vie Xun 09, 2006 4:56 pm    Asuntu: The Lone Ranger and Tonto Responder citando

Did it ever occur to anybody that The Lone Ranger's sidekick's name translates to "idiot"?....


.....mmm that right Kemosabi??...
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Art
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Rexistrau: 17 Feb 2003
Mensaxes: 4493
Llugar: Maryland

MensaxePublicao: Sab Xun 10, 2006 3:56 am    Asuntu: Responder citando

Yeah, my friends and I used to talk about that as we walked to school. And we thought "Kemosabe" sounds a lot like, "He who knows" [Quien lo sabe] or "He who don't know" [Quien no sabe]. Although either would be fairly butchered Castilian.

There are a lot of pages about this on the web. Here are a few::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Ranger
http://www.write101.com/kemosabe.htm
http://www.endeavorcomics.com/largent/ranger/faq.html

The general consensus is that "Kemosabe" probably comes from the Ottawa Indians, who spoke a dialect of Ojibwe. If that's the source (and there seems to be no way of knowing for sure) "Kemosabe" means "trusty scout".

"Tonto" could mean "wild one" in Potawatami (the language of Tonto's supposed tribe), but "fool" seems just as likely.

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Claro, mis amigos y yo hablabamos de eso como andamos al colegio. Y "Kemosabe" suena muy parecido a "Quien que sabe" o "Quien lo sabe" o "Quien no sabe". Aunque cualquiera sea una mutilación de castellano.

Hay muchas páginas web que tratan de ese tema. Aquí hay unas pocas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Ranger
http://www.write101.com/kemosabe.htm
http://www.endeavorcomics.com/largent/ranger/faq.html


El consenso general es que probablemente "Kemosabe" viene de la lenguaje de los indios Ottawa, quienes hablan un dialecto de Ojibwe. Si viene de esa fuente source (y no hay modo de saber si es cierto) "Kemosabe" significa "explorador fiel".

Es posible que "Tonto" significa "el salvaje" en Potawatami (el lenguaje del supuesto tribu de Tonto), pero "idiota" parece tan probable.
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Eli
Moderator


Rexistrau: 30 Mar 2005
Mensaxes: 308
Llugar: Luray, VA. US

MensaxePublicao: Sab Xun 10, 2006 12:04 pm    Asuntu: Responder citando

yeah I remember 'Tonto' being Toro in Castillian, when I first heard of the lone Ranger's sidekick 'Tonto' I smiled and insisted that he had translated the name wrong, "it would be Bull not Tonto!" Smile
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Terechu
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Rexistrau: 24 Xun 2003
Mensaxes: 1559
Llugar: GIJON - ASTURIAS

MensaxePublicao: Dom Xun 11, 2006 5:09 am    Asuntu: Responder citando

I'm not familiar with the Lone Ranger characters, but the best names that translate funny into Spanish are doubtlessly the Japanese ones.

My former employer worked quite intensively with Japanese firms and I made the aquaintance of many interesting professionals from Japan, whose names were hilarious to us, i.e.:

Kamiya = stretcher (camilla)
Kanaya = swine (canalla)
Furukawa = he made holes (furacaba)
Sakamoto = get the motorcycle out (saca moto)

but the one name that had me in stitches was Itoh. Everytime I called Mitsubishi's Madrid office and asked his secretary to speak to "Señor Itoh" (señorito = master, little gentleman) I just cracked up! Laughing
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Bob
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Rexistrau: 24 Feb 2003
Mensaxes: 1738
Llugar: Connecticut and Massachusetts

MensaxePublicao: Dom Xun 11, 2006 5:44 am    Asuntu: Responder citando

There is always the possibility that the Lone Ranger names were simply made up out of thin air, and had no real meaning in any language in the author's mind. Was the author really familiar with Spanish, Ojibwa, etc.? Would an Ojibwa scout in the old west be somewhat out of place?

Here's an interesting link about the origin of the Lone Ranger, and some thought about Kemo Sabe. http://www.write101.com/kemosabe.htm

I suspect that just about any one to four syllable word could be found to be similar to some word or phrase in one of the many, many human languages.
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Eli
Moderator


Rexistrau: 30 Mar 2005
Mensaxes: 308
Llugar: Luray, VA. US

MensaxePublicao: Dom Xun 11, 2006 11:17 am    Asuntu: Responder citando

Had to think a bit about this one "Señor Itoh" Smile some names are funny by nature, even in their own language. As ya’all know I’m into genealogy and I’ve come across some funny surname combinations, for instance we have a ‘Horney my surname’ that’s funny. Of course they are all gone now and in Castillian especially back then late 1800's I’m sure it meant nothing to them. A curious thing, I have not seen this last name anywhere else, wonder if they did away with it because of the connotation a similar word has today...

I’m with Bob on this one, I don’t think the author gave it a second thought as to what any word sounded like in any other language, do we do that when naming anything? I don’t. I do think that it must’ve had some meaning to the author though, it’s just human nature to associate this with that, and if we go out of our way to make sure there is no association or play on the words then we usually make sure everybody knows this is a one of a kind, a specially made up name for this character.
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Art
Site Admin


Rexistrau: 17 Feb 2003
Mensaxes: 4493
Llugar: Maryland

MensaxePublicao: Dom Xun 11, 2006 12:14 pm    Asuntu: Responder citando

It's hard to know how much of what you read on line is true, but the best evaluation I've read is here:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm
(Bob will love the linguistic detail.)

I find convincing that the Lone Ranger began in Detroit as a local radio show, and that one of the producer's father-in-law ran a "Camp Kee-mo-sah-bee". This camp later had "Lone Ranger Camps", too. Better yet, the camp "employed a number of Indians, including at least one Potawatomi man, remembered as Chief Thundercloud" who some report presented programs for the camp. The camp explained the meaning of the word as "trusty scout". (Of course, it could easily be a bastardization in spelling, pronounciation and meaning.)

The origin and meaning of "Tonto" is much more difficult, as that same article describes.

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Es difícil saber cuánto de lo que se lee en línea es verdadero, pero la mejor evaluación que he leído está aquí:
http://spot.colorado.edu/~koontz/faq/etymology.htm
(A Bob le gustará el detalle lingüístico.)

Me encuentro convenciendo que el Lone Ranger [¿Guarda? Solitario] comenzó en Detroit como un programa de radio local, y que suegro de uno de los productores controló el "Campo Kee-mo-sah-bee". Este campo más tarde tenía "Campos de Lone Ranger" [¿Guarda? Solitario], también. Aún mejor, el campo "empleó a un número de Indios, incluyendo al menos un hombre Potawatomi, recordado como Chief Thundercloud" [Chief o Jefe Nubarrón] quién según algunas fuentes presentó programas para el campo. El campo explicó el significado de la palabra como "explorador fiel". (Desde luego, fácilmente podría ser corrupto en la ortografía, la pronounciation, y el significado.)

El origen y el significado de "Tonto" son mucho más difíciles, como describe el mismo artículo.
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