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Asturian-style 'horreos' in northern Turkey (Sinop)
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is
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Asturian-style 'horreos' in northern Turkey (Sinop) Reply with quote

Exactly one year ago, I was traveling from Bürnük to Sinop in northern Anatolia. In my morning daze, the bus suddenly began to glide down the mountains toward Sinop...and all the visual clues indicated I had been mysteriously transported back to Asturias. A faulty Lasik surgery? A sleep-induced hallucination? The article appeared in the IHT/Daily Star (published in Beirut), but I thought you people at Asturianus.org might enjoy it...


A sleepy port town on the banks of the Black Sea
The ancient town of Sinop in northern Turkey, with its mysterious cultural references and excellent fish, offers a fine example of historic parallels

International Herald Tribune/The Daily Star | Paul de Zardain
Beirut

SINOP, Turkey: When it is low on batteries, the human brain is a bag of tricks. One of these is the sleep-induced hallucination, which can be visual or connected to an audio input. Some might argue it can be olfactory. On a trip through northern Turkey last week, I was the object of peculiar visual effects.

Tired from a succession of bus connections that began in Istanbul's station of Esenler, I had left the freezing town of Boyabat at 7a.m. My final destination was Sinop, a town on the Black Sea coast (pop. 70,000). Technically it was only 94km away, but fog and ice conditions along the way made for a gruelling ride. The Dranaz pass, which separates the Northern Anatolian plateau from the coast, lies at an altitude of 1,336 meters. In the dead of winter, everything above the village of Bünükwas snowbound.

After two hours of twists, the bus began a gentle downhill cruise. Awakened by the sunlight, my visual cortex sent an SMS: "We wish to inform you that you are in the emerald countryside of Asturias, northern Spain." My cell phone had not been working since Istanbul, so I paid little attention. I had not paid for GPS either. But through the fogged up windows, I saw an horreo, the wooden granary raised on stilts that typically dots the countryside of northwestern Spain (the word is derived from horreum, Latin for granary).

Grain was as important to ancient Rome as oil crude is to the world economy today. Like oil tanks, the grain needed to be stored in a safe place. Raising it above ground helped prevent rot in humid climates. I rubbed my coat sleeves against the window and saw green meadows. Next to the farmsteads were apple orchards and neat rows of mustard greens. Another horreo, an exact replica of the Asturian model, popped up by the roadside. I was stumped. Was this an example of idea diffusion across Eurasia, as in Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel?" Or just a side-effect of my Lasik operation?

By the time the bus had rolled down to the village of Sinecan, about 30 km from Sinop, a Turkish couple was eyeing me suspiciously. All other travelers seemed to doze peacefully. But I was busy jotting down notes in my "Colloquial Turkish" textbook. On page 342, I wrote: "Sinecan: horreos. Kabali: courtyard horreo. Lala and Tasmanli: more horreos." I kept track of vegetables too. Diets are adaptive and say a lot about environmental constraints. The look of surprise probably gave me away as a foreigner.

Walking down Sakarya Caddesi, Sinop's main street, few people speak English. A student dressed up as Santa Claus asked if I was Russian. Even during the summer months, the port town sees very little outside tourism. The statistic for two years ago is 5,430.

"We get some Danes, some French, some Germans. But most visitors come from Istanbul or Ankara," says Yilmaz Ramazan, owner of the Yilmaz Aile Pansiyonu, near the old fishing wharf. The water is a few degrees colder in the Black Sea than in the Aegean, and arbitrage is a compelling force in the temperature-sensitive tourist industry.

For fish buffs, northern Turkish cuisine is well known for its hamsi (anchovies), which can be marinated or fried in a light egg batter. At the Karadeniz Lokantasi (Black Sea Restaurant), on a street parallel to the wharf, they are served with biberler (long green peppers). Palamut (bonito tuna) is also popular, but not in season this time of the year. The difference in saltwater content means fish species like tuna and swordfish are smaller here than in the Aegean. The Bosphorus acts as a stopper and problems with factory effluents from the Danube, which pours 203 cubed kilometers of freshwater daily, are behind a decline in stocks. Still, the Black Sea accounts for more than 60 percent of Turkey's saltwater fisheries, with Lebanon one of its main import markets.

Sinop lies on a narrow isthmus and has been heavily fortified for 2,000 years. On the ride into town, the views of the massive promontory jutting into the Black Sea are stunning. The town was originally a commercial outpost for the Ionian city of Miletus. Founded in 630 BC, its name is derived from Sinope, the daughter of a Greek God with whom Zeus fell hopelessly in love. She asked for eternal virginity and Zeus granted the wish by letting her live the rest of her days on the stone promontory. Sinop is also the birthplace of Greek philosopher Diogenes the Cynic (412-323BC), famous for telling Alexander the Great to move out of his way while he sat in his bathtub. Later occupants include the Phrygians, Persians, Pontus kings, Romans and Byzantines. The successive waves of ethnic groups have left an imprint on the people, who range from light-haired types to others with more Central Asian features.

As a strategic port, Sinop's importance in history gradually waned. The Ottoman sultans decided early on to transfer operations to Samsun, 170 km east of here. But the strategic location opposite Sevastopol in Crimea was behind a U.S. Army facility during the Cold War. Known as Tuslog Det4, the listening base was notorious for its geodesic domes and parabolic discs. In the 1960s, music blared constantly out of the main ops building to trump Soviet intelligence. Locals still refer to it in Turkish as the "radar." With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the base closed down. And Sinop fell again into a slumber.

While the town slept off the excesses of New Year's Eve, I headed out to Sinecan to pursue the horreo question. At 10am, the dolmus (van service) waited a good 20 minutes before hitting the road. Most of the passengers were local farmers carting goods back to the village. Speaking only a smattering of Turkish, I asked to be dropped off at the roadside cayhane (tea house). The villagers quickly invited me in for tea and said the muhtar (mayor) would show me around in his tractor-bus.

Mehmet Celik, the mayor of Sinecan (pop. 300), does not know the origin of the wooden horreos in the Black Sea. In Turkish they are known as anbar (plural anbarlar), which means granary. We visited several courtyard specimens in his constituency. Farmers in this part of Turkey grow apples, corn and buckwheat. They use the anbarlar to keep their produce dry throughout the winter. Air circulates through the granary from a small entrance door to an opening on the opposite wall. On the sides with southern exposure, locals hang strings of red peppers, while chickens use the ledge to bask in the sun. The pillars (fari, in Turkish) are made of either stone or oak, and they are crowned by a tas, a circular stone that keeps mice from crawling inside. Although the principle is the same as in Asturias, the Black Sea version of the horreo tends to be smaller. Building materials also include scrap metal and plywood.

In the early imperial period, a Roman legion was composed of approximately 5000 infantry and 100 cavalry. Their supply requirements, according to studies by historian Donald Engels, included 1.5 kilograms of grain per man and 4.5 kilos per horse. Cereal grains are fast growing and high in carbohydrates. Most Roman units built public horrea to ensure a regular supply. In the frontiers of the Roman Empire, these granaries would have served to keep food at reasonable prices, much like Saudi Arabia uses spare capacity to stabilize oil markets today. Tribute to local governors in ancient Bythinia, on Turkey's Black Sea coast, was probably paid in grain.

It made sense, therefore, that the anbarlar of Sinecan were a Roman innovation. After all, most technology is borrowed. In the case of the anbanlar, the architectural blueprints were simply adapted to a new climate. As it turned out, both Asturias and Turkey's Black Sea coast share equal amounts of precipitation. The jarring similarity was no visual fluke, but an example of historical parallels.

For maps and facts on Sinop, visit www.sinop.gov.tr. The Yilmaz Aile Pansiyonu (261 5752, $25 per night) has beautiful views of the fishing wharf and the Black Sea.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=4&article_ID=21620
© 2006 The Daily Star











Last edited by is on Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:42 am; edited 2 times in total
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Terechu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hace años una amiga mía vió esos hórreos en Turquía, pero iba en autobús y como era casi de noche no le dió tiempo a hacer fotos. Yo creí que serían sólo parecidos a los hórreos asturianos, más o menos como los "granaries" de Inglaterra que tienen los mismo pegoyos, aunque más cortos y el tejado a dos aguas - pero hace poco los ví un documental sobre hórreos (creo que fue en TPA) y, efectivamente, salieron imágenes de esos hórreos turcos y son prácticamente iguales.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Asturian version Reply with quote

Eiquí vei la versión de los horros turcos n'asturianu, pa los que nun falan inglés. Foi espublizao hai 1 ano nu semanal 'Les Noticies'.

(I also have a series of pics which I will attach after I figure out the software here. The pics are actually quite stunning, considering the region of Sinop is thousands of miles from Asturias.)

Horros del Mar Prietu

Mundu alantre hai paisaxes que fain recordar el sitiu onde ún se criou, pola orografía ou pol tipu de vexetación. Pero que nuna escena d'esas se vean construcciones 'de tola vida' qu'un créia que namái las había al par de casa, ía más raro. Esto foi lo que-y pasou a ún camín de Sinop, na costa del Mar Prietu de Turquía. Pente las aldeas surdían siluetas d'horros ya caserías, paisanos al.lindando ganau ya l.lourías de berzas.

SINOP (TURQUIA): Cuando ún ta frayáu, la cabeza ía una caxa ximuestras. Una d'el.las ía l'aventón que produz nel ser humanu la falta suenu. Nel intre, el celebru ta programau pa enducir efectos visuales ou sonoros que nun existen. De xuru que la ximuestra pue ser tamién de xeitu olfativu, nun séi. Sicasí, nun viaxe pola rexón norte de Turquía hai una selmana, nun pasaba a creer lo que vían mious güeyos.

Mayáu de pañar autobuses dende Esenler, la estación central d'Estambul, chegara a la xilada vil.la de Boyabat el vienres 31 d'avientu a la nueite. Cuasi ensin dormir, esconsonara ceu pa garrar el bus pal outru l.lau del cordal. El miou destín final yera la ciudá de Sinop, nel Mar Prietu (Kara Deniz, en turcu), con 70.000 habitantes. Na veira la carretera taba escrito que nun yeran más de 94km, pero por causa del xelu ya la nublina, el viaxe volvéuse un enguedeyu. El puertu de Dranaz, que xebra la meseta d'Anatolia pa cona costa norte de Turquía, taba a 1.336m d'altor. Too por riba l'aldea de Bürnük taba embaxo la nieve.

Depués de dúas horas de costapona, l'autobus entamou a esguilar suavín pola carretera. Despiertu pola l.luz del sol, el cortex visual unviarame un SMS al traviés de Vodafone: 'Informamos-y que ta acabante chegar a Asturias. Que s'afaye.' El miou móvil deixara de furrular dende Estambul, asina que nun-y fixi muitu casu. Amás, nun pagara enxamás pol serviciu GPS de Vodafone. Seique, pola ventana ensarañada atoupara un horru asturianu.

La escanda yera tan importante pa l'antigua Roma como güei lo ía'l petróleu pa la economía global. Como nos tanques de depósitu pa crudu, la escanda había de metese nuna tuña pa guardala en sitiu seguru. L.levantar la grana enriba enriba'l suelu aidaba a que nun empodreciera. Cola manga l'abrigu, l.limpiéi la ventana ya vi praos verdes. Xunto a una casería taba un pumarín igual que n'Asturias ya una l.louría de berzas. Sele, outru horru aparecéu a mandreita. Nun creía lo que vían mious güeyos. ¿Yera esto un exemplu de difusión cultural, lo que diz Jared Diamond nu sou l.libru 'Escopetes, microbios ya aceiru'? ¿Ou yera un efectu secundariu de la operación de Lasik?

De la que chegáramos a l'aldea de Sinecan (pronúnciase 'Sineyán' en turcu), a unos 30km al sur de Sinop, una pareya xunto a min entamou a mirame con rocea. Nu autobus taban tolos demás durmiendo como anxelinos. Pero ehí taba you faciendo apuntes nu l.libru de 'Colloquial Turkish'. Na páxina 342 escribiera esto: 'Sinecan: horros. Kabali: horru frente l'antoxana una casería. Lala ya Tasmanli: más horros.' Tampouco nun me pasaban inalvertidas las berzas. Falan muitu de lo que xanta la xente del l.lugar. La mía cara sorpresa, seique, delatoume como foriatu.

Depués de cuasi 3 horas de viaxe, cheguéi a la estación de Sinop. Na cai principal, Sakarya Caddesi (pronunciase 'yaddesi' en turcu), pouca xente falaba inglés. Un estudiante antroxáu de Santa Claus entrugárame si yera rusu ya darréu, quixo vendeme lotería. El casu ía qu'inda nos meses de branu, xente foriato hai bien pouco. La estadística de 2003 foi de 5.430 extranxeiros. "Preiquí pasan daneses, franceses, dalgún alemán. Pero la mayoría los turistas son turcos d'Ankara ya Estambul," diz Yilmaz Ramazan, dueñu de la Pensión Yilmaz Aile, metanos del puertu pesqueiru. L'augua del Mar Prietu ía unos dous graos más fría que nu Mar Exéu, ya por eso el turismo tira más pal sur de Turquía. Vamos, que quel l.lugar bien podía ser L.luarca.

A los que-ys gusta'l peixe, la cocina na rexón norte de Turquía ye célebre polos 'hamsi' (bocartinos), que se cuemen eiquí nuna salsa ou fritos nun embláu. Nel restorán Karadeniz Lokantasi, na cai xunto al puertu, sirven los bocartes con 'biberler' (pimientos picantes). El 'palamut' (bonitu) tamién ía popular en Sinop, pero agora nun ía época d'ello. L'augua nu Mar Prietu, amás de frio, tien menos sal que nu Mediterráneu. Poro, exemplares d'especies como'l bocarte ya'l bonitu son davezu más pequenos. Amás, el Bósforu desaxera l'entaponamientu del Mar Prietu. Conos efluyentes contaminaos del Danubio, qu'eicha má de 203km cúbicos d'augua dulce tolos días, el peixe ta en desaniciu.

Sinop ta asitíau nun istmu que vei 2.000 anos xa tuviera fortificau. En chegando a la ciudá, la panorámica de la penaseita mentoas del Mar Prietu ía mui guapa. La ciudá foi colonia mercantil de Miletu nu sieglu VII enantes de la era cristiana. Fundada nu 630 a.C., el nom de Sinop vien de Sinope, la fía d'un dious griegu. Dicen que Zeus namorarase d'el.la ya deixóula na penona pa que morriera virxe. Sinop tamién ía la ciudá natal del filósofu Dióxenes el Cínicu (412-323 a.C.), célebre porque-y dixera a Alexandru Magnu que taba tapando-y el sol mentes se bañaba. Tamién pasaran per Sinop frixos, persas, reis del Ponto, celtas, romanos ya bizantinos. Folas de tueru estremáu fain que la xente eiquí tea abondo amestao. Hailos roxos ya conos rasgos d'Asia Central. Como puertu de mar, Sinop esmadeixóu na hestoria cuando los sultanes otomanos decidieran camudase al puertu de Samsun, a 170km en direición este. Pero l'al.lugamientu nel 42N 35E, frente a Sevastópol en Crimea, feixo que na Guerra Fría l'Exércitu d'EEUU tuviera eiquí una base. Conocida como Tuslog Det4, la base de telecomunicaciones abel.lugaba antenas parabólicas ya bolas xeodésicas pa escuitar al enemigu soviéticu al outru l.lau la mar. Nos anos 60, paez ser qu'un filu musical tocaba tol santu día nu cimeiru la pena pa espintar a los servicios d'intelixencia rusos. Tou eso acabóu en 1991, col argayu de la URSS. Pero inda güei, la xente de Sinop fala del 'radar americanu'.

L'asuntu los horros

Mentres la xente durmía la folixa d'Anu Nuevu, you marchéi deica Sinecan tras l'asuntu los horros. A las 10 de la mañana, el 'dolmus' (camioneta pequena) tardóu 20 minutos en salir de la estación de Sinop. La mayoría la xente yera aldeano. Ensin falar muitu turcu, pidí que me pousaran na 'cayhane' (casa de té; pronúnciase 'chaih.ane' en turcu, pallabra d'aniciu persa) de Sinecan. Los paisanos que taban dientro convidánonme nel intre a un té. Cuando-ys descplicara que diba a la gueta los horros, dixénonme que taba acabante chegar el 'muhtar' (alcalde). Diba aveirame elli nu sou tractor-bus a las caserías de Sinecan que tuvieran horros.

Mehmet Celik ía l'alcalde de Sinecan, un pueblu de 300 habitantes. Nun sabe d'aú vien el fenómenu de los horros del Mar Prietu. En turcu chámen-ys 'anbar' (forma plural: 'anbarlar'). Nu tractor-bus pousamonos nunas cuantas caserías metiéndonos per caleyas espetadas de barru ya bul.la del ganao. Los aldeanos d'esta rexón de Turquía seman escanda ya maíz, igual que se facía nu oucidente d'Asturias. Tamién hai pumaradas. L'horru val pa guardalo too bien ensuito pel iviernu. L'aire pasa d'un l.lau a outru al traviés de ventaniel.las. Na parte sur del horru, cuelgan riestras de pimientos picantes coloraos ya nun requeixu pousan las pitas al solín de pela tarde. Los 'fari' (pegol.los en turcu) pueden tar feitos de piedra raxola ou de rebol.lu, que tamién los hai abondos. Enriba'l pegol.lu tienen colocáu un 'tas' (pronúnciase 'tax'), muela en turcu, igual que n'Asturias, pa que nun xuban los ratos. Magar que'l principiu ía'l mesmu, l'horru del Mar Prietu ía una migaya más pequeno que l'asturianu. El material de construcción tamién puede incluyir chatarra ou paneles de composite.

Na dómina imperial romana, una lexón taba compuesta d'unos 5.000 soldaos d'infantería ya 100 de cabal.leiría. Pa dar de comer a esi exércitu facían falta un kilu ya outru mediu d'escanda por paisanu ya 4.5kg por montura. La grana de cereal medraba rápido ya tenía un valor altu d'hidratos de carbono. Según l'historiador Donald Engels, la mayor parte de las lexones romanas amañaban los sous propios horros ou 'anbarlar'. Nas l.lendes del Imperiu, l'horru públicu aseguraba l'alimentu a toa la población. Ía igual que fai Arabia Saudina anguaño conas suas reservas de petróleu--los romanos tiraban de la escanda ou de la grana pa mantener el preciu asientu. El tributu que-ys tocaba pagar a los ciudadanos romanos de Bythinia, na costa del Mar Prietu de Turquía, facías de xuru conas reservas del 'anbar'.

Yera de xacíu, entós, que los horros de Sinecan foran d'aniciu romanu. Sicasí, la mayor parte de la tecnoloxía empréstase d'una cultura a outra, como diz Jared Diamond. Si una sociedá ta avezada a recibir innovaciones tecnolóxicas, medra tamién el sou espíritu d'invención. Nu casu los 'anbarlar' turcos, el planu arquitectónicu axústase al clima del l.lugar, igual que n'Asturias tresmontana. Asturias ya la rexon de Sinop tienen unos niveles de l.luvia asemeyaos. Nun ía chocante, poro, que la solución a un problema de cómo atrouxar el produto agrícola fora el mesmu. Eso sí, entrábame la risa de xemes en cuando porque un camión repartidor de la multinacional Lays andaba per Sinecan repartiendo 'patates frites'. En turcu dizse igual que n'asturianu.

END
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Art
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Paul. That is amazingly like the horreos of Asturias. And the landscape could be Asturian (or WVian), too.

(Your photos are ready!)

--------

Gracias, Paul. Me sorprenda que son tan parecidos a los horreos de Asturias. Y el paisaje puede ser asturiano (o de Virginia Occidental), también.

(Tus fotos están preparados.)
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is
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: W. Virginia-Asturias-Sinop Reply with quote

That's funny you mention the landscape similarity between West Virginia and Asturias, Art. My uncle Carl Murrell, from the southern part of the state, used to look at my pictures of Asturias and say 'that's just like where I'm from'--something to do with the rolling green hills and the types of trees and the heavy clouds. He lived in Washington state (Tacoma) later on, but always had a hankering for the West Virginian landscape. His was a very Asturian or Galician kind of 'murnia' or 'morriña'.
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Art
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, your idea that horreos were a Roman import in both Turkey and Asturias makes sense. I wonder why the granaries in Galicia are made of stone. Maybe because stone is more readily available there?

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Paul, tu idea que los horreos, tanto de Turquía como de Asturias, eran una importación romana tiene sentido. Me pregunto porqué los graneros en Galicia se hacían de piedra. ¿Quizá estaba porque se encuentra allí más fácilmente la piedra?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hasta las vacas son roxas...
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Art
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at the photos Isl has placed in the first message.

Mira los fotos que Is ha puesto en su primer mensaje.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject: Hugh Elton Reply with quote

The idea that the Black Sea 'anbarlar' may be a Roman innovation is certainly just a theory and in no way conclusive. I am neither an anthropologist nor a scientific historian. But from a recent visit to the Musee des Arts et Metiers (an excellent science & industry museum in Paris), I realized that the Romans were not formidable innovators, as much as users of organizational genius. Here is a paraphrased quote by Bruno Jacomy in his 'Une histoire des techniques' (Editions du Seuil, 1990, p. 12) on the idea of 'innovation':

"Often, several inventions are contemporaneous of each other and arise 'naturally', here or there, given the right historical context and given the right person, perhaps more clever than others or more open to innovation, as a kind of 'creative sparkle'. That is how, for example, the hydraulic-powered mill, cannon powder, the telephone or the phonograph arose--but not as unique discoveries. The historical tracking carried out in the US of such inventions have proven the vanity of that type of claims. Yes, since ancient times, since the first steps of agriculture or of metallurgical applications straight through our most recent discoveries, the history of inventions is an uninterrupted chain of advances where each technique evolves on the basis of a preexisting culture that facilitates successive and cumulative innovations."

That's just a loose translation, people. I also consulted 'Frontiers of the Roman Empire' by Hugh Elton (Indiana Univ. Press, 1996) for the history of the northern coast of Turkey. I'll copy out some interesting quotes by Elton too.
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Terechu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is, ya que mencionas a Jared Diamond (qué documentales tan impresionantes hace!), y ya que la agricultura y los animales de granja (vaques, gochos, pites, oveyes) vinieron de - ¿cómo lo llamaríamos hoy? ¿Asia Menor, Mesopotamia? cabe suponer que también nos llegaron los graneros de esa zona. Y no sólo a nosotros. ¿Alguien se ha dado cuenta de que los hórreos tienen una semejanza considerable con las pagodas chinas? Laughing
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Is, now that you mention Jared Diamond (he makes some impressive documentaries!) and since agriculture and farm animals (cows, pigs, chicken and sheep) came to us from - how is it called nowadays: Asia Minor, Mesopotamia? - we have to assume that the granaries came to us from the same area. And not just to us...has anyone ever wondered about the considerable similarity between Chinese pagodas and Asturian hórreos?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is, you're probably right that it wasn't a Roman innovation. In their art, a topic I know a little better, the Romans borrowed heavily from the Greeks. If I remember correctly, they had Greek artists working for them. I'd expect that something similar was at work with the horreos (importation, rather than innovation).


Terechu, do we know how long the Asturian cattle have been here (oops.... there. You know my head is!)? Weren't the castro dwellers also herders? I wonder how they stored their grain? I was going to ask if there were horreo-like structures in the castros, but there's not much chance we would know given that only the stone pillars would be left now.

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Is, tienes razón probablemente que no era una innovación romana. En su arte, un asunto que sé un poco mejor, los Romanos tomaron en alto grado de los Griegos. Si recuerdo correctamente, tenían artistas griegos trabajando para ellos. Esperaba con que algo similar tuvo lugar con los horreos (importación en vez de innovación.).

¿Terechu, sabemos hace cuánto tiempo los ganados de Asturian han estado aquí (opa... allí. ¡Ya sabes donde está mi mente.!)? ¿No eran los habitantes de los castros también vaqueros o pastores? ¿Me pregunto cómo almacenaron su grano? Iba a preguntar si hubiera estructuras parecidos al horreo en los castros, pero hay poca posibilidad que sabríamos dado que solamente los pilares de piedra ahora serían dejados.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: Jared Diamond Reply with quote

More on the issue of innovation courtesy of Jared Diamond, the bio-geographer at UCLA and author of 'Collapse' (2005) and 'Guns, germs & steel' (1997). Yes, it could be the other way around, i.e., that the 'horros' were originally invented around the Black Sea. See following quotes from 'Guns, germs & steel'.

"...I don't subscribe to the obvious fallacy that every society promptly adopts every innovation that would be useful for it. The fact is that, over entire continents and other large areas containing hundreds of competing societies, some societies will be more open to innovation, and some will be more resistant. The ones that do adopt new crops, livestock, or technology may thereby be enabled to noursih themselves better and to outbreed, displace, conquer or kill off societies resisting innovation..." (p. 154)

"...Such transmission of inventions assumes a whole spectrum of forms. At the one end lies 'blueprint copying', when you copy or modify an available detailed blueprint. At the opposite end lies 'idea diffusion', when you receive little more than the basic idea and have to reinvent the details. Knowing that it can be done stimulates you to try to do it yourself, but your eventual solution may or may not resemble that of the first inventor..." (p. 225)

"Necessity is the mother of invention?...In fact, many or most inventions were developed by people driven by curiosity or by a love of tinkering in the absence of any initial demand for the product they had in mind. Once a device had been invented, the inventor then had to find an application for it. Only after it had been in use for a considerable time did consumers come to feel that they 'needed' it." (p. 243)

"...Such complex inventions were usually acquired by borrowing, because they spread more rapidly than they could be independently invented locally. A clear example is the wheel, which is first attested around 3400BC near the Black Sea and then turns up within the next few centuries over much of Europe and Asia. All those Old World wheels are of a peculiar design: a solid wooden circle constructed on 3 planks fastened together, rather than a rim with spokes..." (p. 255)
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Chris
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ummmm por que no fue alguna gente Noble de Asturias o norte de españa que fueron a luchar en tierra santa y por el camino la gente que les acompañaba fueron dejando cultura de asturias. O al revés cristianos de aquella zona que fueron de peregrinacion a roma y después a Francia y de Francia a Santiago. por la edad media el único motivo de desplazamiento era o por guerra o por peregrinacion.
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Terechu
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art wrote:
Is, you're probably right that it wasn't a Roman innovation. In their art, a topic I know a little better, the Romans borrowed heavily from the Greeks. If I remember correctly, they had Greek artists working for them. I'd expect that something similar was at work with the horreos (importation, rather than innovation).


Terechu, do we know how long the Asturian cattle have been here (oops.... there. You know my head is!)? Weren't the castro dwellers also herders? I wonder how they stored their grain? I was going to ask if there were horreo-like structures in the castros, but there's not much chance we would know given that only the stone pillars would be left now.

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Is, tienes razón probablemente que no era una innovación romana. En su arte, un asunto que sé un poco mejor, los Romanos tomaron en alto grado de los Griegos. Si recuerdo correctamente, tenían artistas griegos trabajando para ellos. Esperaba con que algo similar tuvo lugar con los horreos (importación en vez de innovación.).

¿Terechu, sabemos hace cuánto tiempo los ganados de Asturian han estado aquí (opa... allí. ¡Ya sabes donde está mi mente.!)? ¿No eran los habitantes de los castros también vaqueros o pastores? ¿Me pregunto cómo almacenaron su grano? Iba a preguntar si hubiera estructuras parecidos al horreo en los castros, pero hay poca posibilidad que sabríamos dado que solamente los pilares de piedra ahora serían dejados.


Art, it is well known that the ancient Astures in pre-Roman times were more of the hunting and fishing kind and not much inclined to agriculture as their only means of survival, mostly because our climate won't allow cereals to thrive and there was nothing to feed livestock with. What livestock there was (cows, horses, sheep) had to feed in pastures. You know that potatoes and maize didn't reach us until the 16th/17th Century. It's no wonder most Asturian hórreos date from that time - we finally had enough food to store and everybody needed an hórreo of their own.
Before the maize and potato bonanza we got our carbohydrates from turnips and chestnuts and the ancient Astures are said to have made "blitz-raids" into Leon and Castille to steal wheat supplies from helpless farming villages (no, we weren't polite!)

Art, se sabe que los astures de la época preromana eran más bien cazadores y pescadores y no tenían mucha afición a la agricultura como medio único de subsistencia, mayormente porque nuestro clima impide el cultivo de cereales y no había piensos para alimentar al ganado. El ganado que había (vacas, caballos, ovejas) se alimentaban en los pastos. Ya sabes que las patatas y el maiz no los llegaon hasta el siglo XVI/XVII. No es sorprendente que la mayoría de los hórreos asturianos sean de esa época - por fin había cosecha bastante para almacenar y todo el mundo necesitaba hórreo propio. Antes de la bonanza del maiz y las patatas, nuestra fuente de hidratos de carbono eran los nabos y las castañas y se dice que los antiguos astures hacían incursiones relámpago en la meseta para robar trigo a los aldeanos indefensos. (No éramos gente educada precisamente).
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Art
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, although I had read that there were Asturian shepherds in pre-Roman times, I didn't realize that raising grains wasn't common until very recently. No wonder Asturians have a "coarse" reputation (for that theft of grain). Thanks, Terechu!

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Vaya, aunque había leído que había pastores asturianos en las épocas pre-Romanas, no realicé que cultivar granos no era común hasta los siglos últimos. Quizá tiene razón que los asturianos tienen una reputación "burdo" (por esos robos de grano). ¡Gracias, Terechu!
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