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The Lords of Navarre: A Basque Family Saga

 
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Celtica



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: The Lords of Navarre: A Basque Family Saga Reply with quote

A very interesting new [historical fiction] book on the Basques. Easy-reading, imaginative, books on Iberian history and culture in English are few and far between. It has been receiving some pretty solid reviews and I will be ordering my copy sometime this week.



Quote:
An epic novel of breathtaking scope, The Lords of Navarre is skillfully conceived and masterfully written. It traces a Basque family's history from the last Ice Age to the present, an untold story of a people still speaking the haunting voices of its Cro-Magnon ancestors.

Lacambra-Loizu weaves a compelling chronicle of successive generations of Basque warlords who settle in the western Pyrenean uplands. Over the course of centuries, their destinies and fortunes become intertwined with those of Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lionheart, the Black Prince, Sancho el Fuerte, Cesare Borgia, and Ferdinand and Isabel of Castile.

The Lords of Navarre is an authoritative, meticulously researched account of the Basques, their lives as early hunters and farmers, the dawning of Christianity in their land, their fierce battles to fend off Celts, Romans, Franks, Moors and Castilians from their beloved highlands.
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Carlos
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola, Erik, bienvenido al foro.

Quisiera hacer algunos comentarios sobre la obra que presentas. En primer lugar, no puede uno evitar cierto escepticismo leyendo la introducción que citas en el recuadro. ¿Por qué será que me recuerda tanto a la novela histórica "Amaya o los vascos en el siglo VIII", escrita por el navarro Francisco Navarro Villoslada y publicada en 1879?

Si estoy en lo cierto, como así lo creo, se trataría de una especie de secuela con 130 años de retraso de una novela pretendidamente "histórica", llena de inexactitudes, empezando porque Amaya nunca fue una ciudad vascona, vasca, navarra, euskaldún ni nada parecido, sino perteneciente a los antiguos cántabros pre-romanos, de filiación indoeuropea más bien céltica.

Cierto que una novela es literatura, y que incluso cuando se relatan hechos históricos en el trasfondo de la misma no es preciso el mismo rigor que en el ensayo de un historiador. Caben ciertas libertades, por ejemplo rellenado determinadas lagunas con ficción, cosa que un historiador nunca puede hacer, sino como mucho ciertas conjeturas propuestas a modo de hipótesis de trabajo. Pero todo tiene un límite.

Por ejemplo, suena bastante ridículo eso de It traces a Basque family's history from the last Ice Age to the present, an untold story of a people still speaking the haunting voices of its Cro-Magnon ancestors.

Sería inconcebible que ninguna familia, de origen vasco, celta, swahili o cualquier otro, conservara memoria de la vida de sus antepasados nada menos que desde el Paleolítico, unos 40000 años atrás en Europa occidental. Esto es, con perdón, una boutade, quizás más disculpable hace un siglo y medio, en pleno romanticismo, pero no en el siglo XXI. Al menos, Navarro Villoslada tuvo la prudencia de no remontarse más allá de la Alta Edad Media.

Discrepo también con lo de "an untold story". ¿No contada? Dios mío, la cantidad de veces que nos lo llevan contando!

Habría que explicarle al autor, que los cromañones son los ancestros de TODOS NOSOTROS, asturianos, suecos, griegos, nigerianos, japoneses, es decir, del completo género humano actualmente existente, y no sólo de los vascos.

Ni siquiera es posible afirmar que los euskaldunes hablan la misma lengua o una derivada de la de aquellos lejanos antepasados. En primer lugar, porque no existen pruebas, y en segundo porque ni el euskera ni ninguna otra lengua existieron siempre, se formaron en algún momento, se van transformando y diacrónicamente en otro momento dejan de existir.

Estaría bien también que el señor Lacambra-Loizu supiera que en todo el territorio de las actuales comunidades autónomas de País Vasco y Navarra no existe el menor rastro de toponimia prehistórica atribuible a la lengua vasca, excepto el Oiasson transmitido por los griegos y romanos (actual Oiartzun), y la propia ciudad de Pompaelo (hoy Pamplona), que por lo demás es un híbrido latino-euskera, compuesto del nombre de Pompeyo y de la palabra vasca ili, que significa 'ciudad', y que fue fundada precisamente por los romanos.

Los nombres que más duran en el tiempo son los de los ríos, a través de los sucesivos cambios de lengua habidos en un territorio. Pues bien, los hidrónimos del País Vasco y Navarra son indoeuropeos, de la capa que Hans Krahe llamaba Alteuropäische. Lo mismo cabe decir de los pueblos que habitaban la depresión vasca, Várdulos, Caristios y Autrigones, también indoeuropeos posiblemente célticos.

En fin, una obra más enmarcada en los tópicos ya conocidos del euskera presuntamente contenedor de reminiscencias paleolíticas, como los supuestos compuestos en base a aitz = 'piedra', de donde aizkora = 'hacha', cuando varios lingüistas profundos conocedores de la lengua vasca ya dan por demostrada la etimología basada en el bajo latín 'axeola'.

Si te parece bien, cuando leas esta novela nos haces una reseña en la sección "Reviews & Reccomendations".

Saludos Cool
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Celtica



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 20
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for the welcome. It seems you hail from the same area of Asturias that my family comes from.

Unfortunately, I do not speak Spanish, nor any other Iberian language. I am not sure if this going to present a problem in this exchange, but I hope it doesn't. I was able to translate a fair bit of your post and I do really appreciate your input. So thank you for taking the time. I would encourage you to continue doing so whenever you see fit.

To begin with I would have to say that, while there are likely countless books pertaining to Basque history, culture, language, politics, etc. in the Iberian languages, in the English language such books are limited and relatively difficult to get a hold of. The last (somewhat) popular English narrative on the Basques was the "The Basque History of the World: The Story of a Nation" by Mark Kurlansky. That's probably the only book exclusively on the Basques that I have come across at a mainstream bookstore. Of course, I have seen a decent number of books pertaining to the Basques that are of a more obscure nature, which are usually put out by various universities. You can generally come across those sorts online if you're lucky enough.

As for the Cantabrians and their neighbors to the west (and elsewhere in Iberia, depending on how we choose to identify these peoples), there is certainly no denying their Celtic heritage; I certainly do not. However, the Celtic language and culture was not always there in antiquity and I think we can assume that the cultures and languages in existence before the arrival of Indo-European languages & cultures were relatively similar and there is no denying that the Basque language and perhaps a few other aspects of the culture are quite relative to that (pre-Indo-European) history. Of course, I am aware that an appreciable amount of the overall integrity of the Basque language and culture has been corrupted by varying degrees of (mainly) Latin influence. I think perhaps you might be taking the review of the book a little too literally in parts; Namely that they are "still speaking the haunting voices of their Cro-Magnon ancestors".

Academics have been trying to assess how similar these pre-Indo-European peoples were in Iberia and also Gaul, the Atlantic Isles and elsewhere in the Western Europe. Genetically, there is certainly no denying the strong genetic bond between all Iberians, particularly in the north. And this also carries over (in varying degrees) to other parts of Western Europe; especially the British Isles/Ireland. But again I should stress that I am not trying to downplay the significance in the other types of distinctions between the Basques and their neighbors. These differences are very much appreciable. As you can tell by my own screen name here, I take a great deal of pride in our mutual Celtic heritage. However, I have yet to see any evidence of this book trying to downplay this significance. Perhaps we should give it the benefit of the doubt.

As for the Cro-Magnons, it's somewhat difficult to assess the extent of their ancestry amongst all present-day Europeans. What we do know is that they were an Upper Paleolithic group that had its most appreciable presence in the Atlantic fringe of Europe. The parallels between the history of Cro-Mags and Basques, coupled with that genetic common denominator shared between Iberians and other Atlantic European groups, makes the link between Basques and Cro-Mags plausible. That being said, such is no different than say Irishman identifying with his Cro-Magnon ancestry.

The value of the historical content that is featured in a historical fiction story can usually vary. Allegedly, the historical foundation is quite good in this book, but it's obviously not going to be as meticulous as a real history book. Since it is a historical fiction, I'm sure that it will tend to take a more absolutist position towards various things that the academic community has yet to conclusively substantiate. I don't think it's right, however, to just assume that the historical content will be of poor value. That weighs heavily on the authors own expertise.

The implication that the characters in the book are constantly aware of their direct ancestry, I think is based on a misinterpretation of the scant material available on this book; as are a few of the arguments that I have seen made against it.

Once I receive the book and read it, I will be sure to give it a balanced review. I will subject the material to a thorough scrutiny.
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Carlos
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Erik.

Sorry, I don't have had the time to translate my post, because my English is not very good. I am able to read it, but it is a hard work for me to write in your language.

Do you know the Spanish professor Francisco Villar? He is a professor of Indoeuropean Linguistics at the Salamanca University. In his book "Vascos, Celtas e Indoeuropeos. Genes y Lenguas," ed. Universidad de Salamanca, 2005, Villar explains the Prehistoric Onomastics from both Basque Country & Navarre.

What is Onomastic? It is the branch of Linguistics that studies the proper names, subdivided in Anthroponimics (personal names), Theonimics (names of deities), and Toponimics (place names). Toponimic is also subdivised in Hydronymous (river and water names), Oronymous (mountains and elevations) and Choronymous (inhabitated settlements).

All these names are important resources to determine the language of a concrete people in a concrete region, in a concrete date. Due to a lot of causes, those names have a different degree of survival ability.

The most perishable are the personal names, in second place the gods' names, more durables are the names of cities, towns and villages, and those which have the longest durability are the river and aquatic names.

In the third chapter of his 600-page book, Mr. Villar analyzes all the pre-Roman names of the Basque Country (Alava, Vizcaya, Guipúzcoa) and Navarre, and he demonstrates the complete absence of any basque trace. In his own words:

1 - Anthroponymics tell us that in the II-III centuries of current era (Roman times) no Basque personal name is present in Basque Country.

2 - In Navarre in these years are detectable some little settlements among the older inhabitants, Indoeuropeans and Iberians, a minority except in Pamplona. On the Bascones coins, no inscription is in the Basque language, nor is any Basque place name written.

3 - About 64% of all old place names that we know in the Basque Country, Navarre and Aragon belong to a language whose etymology, phonetics, noun composition, derivational suffixes and inflectional morphemes [Carlos explains this in another message below] are compatible with an Indoeuropean etymology.

4 - In the Basque Country a strong representation of specifically Celtic place names is present, with 18.75%. However, this strata is very rare in Navarre, with only one example (2.26%)

5 - In Navarre and Northern Aragon there is a small number of place names that indicates the presence of some Gauls originally from France, but in Roman times (Pagus Gallorum, Gallicum = river Gállego).

6 - Iberian place names are totally absent in the Basque Country. There is a very little representation in Navarre, with only two (5.26%) probable examples: bolsken, umanbaate.

7 - Basque place names (in Euskera) have only two examples. In the West, Oiasso/Oiarso, in the territorial boundary of Aquitany, is probably a prolongation of the Aquitanian Basque language, which is to say, not a northern Basque Country place name, but a southern Aquitanian one. In the East, Pompaelo (Pamplona) has an internal date-denoting factor: as it is based in the name of Pompeius, which couldn't be prior to Pompeius' era [in English, "Pompey," a general who served as governor of Roman Hispania]. No place name demonstrates the presence of Euskera speakers in Basque Country nor Navarre before Pompeius.

On this book, Francisco Villar (and Blanca M. Prósper) bear also in mind all the modern understanding of Population Genetics, taking in account the works of Cavalli-Sforza, Semino and many others.

If you can read Spanish, I strongly recommend it to you.

Best wishes Cool

[Art: I've tweaked some of the text for the sake of comprehensibility.]
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is
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I know much about the Basque Country's proto-history, but is there not a consensus that the 3 provinces of the Basque Country (Gipuzkoa, Bizkaia and Araba) were resettled by people from Navarre?

Hence, it would make sense that there is a higher presence of names of rivers/bodies of water in euskera in Navarre than in the present-day Basque Country, where at least some of the river names appear to be Celtic in origin, as is the case of the river Deba or Deva. See this page:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_Deva_%28Guip%C3%BAzcoa%29

Incidentally, Erik, there is also a river Deva in Asturias and that is also the name of a village outside of Xixon. And it looks like there are two other rivers called Deva in Galicia, in the provinces of Ourense and Pontevedra.

Carlos, the Wiki page lists these names for tributaries of the River Deba/Deva in Gipuzkoa. Any comment on their possible origins?

Angiozar
Aramaio
Aranerreka
Kilimon
Oñate
Ego


Last edited by is on Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Betty



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Centerburg, Knox County, Ohio USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: The Lords of Navarre A Basque Family Saga Reply with quote

First of all I am thanking Carlos for writing his post in English. Carlos, your English is just fine! Your subject matter is most interesting and I appreciate being able to learn and enjoy your content. I continue to study Spanish and only hope one day to be able to post in Spanish somewhere near as well as you do now in English! (Not yet for me!) I can understand some written posts, but certainly not the majority. Composition is another matter completely. So, Thank You Carlos.

Secondly, for Celtica, you mentioned a lack of reading material on northern Spain here in the US. I certainly agree with you. I search for anything about Asturias, mostly in vain. I did read Mark Kurlansky's book The Basque History of the World (while traveling in Asturias last year) and enjoyed it. He has quite an extensive bibliography, Spanish & French I am afraid...

I have read a number of other books which are about Spain in general, not my fondest interests of Asturias to be sure. One book which I am using to help me in learning Spanish is a "side by side" book concerning legends of Spain, which is entertaining. though elementary I am sure. Stories from Spain/Historias de Espana by Genevieve Barlow and William N. Stivers. If you are not familiar with the Side by Side books, they are bilingual; the left page is in English and the right is in Spanish.

Last, I wish to mention a periodical I just stumbled across in Amazon.com concerning Basque information & I thought it might interest you. It is titled Journal for the Society of Basque Studies in America It stated it is published once a year and the cost is $35 US dollars, the issue may take 6 mo. to a year to receive. Unfortunately it did not give any additional information on content. But, it appears there is sufficient interest in the US to publish a yearly journal. Perhaps someone else in the forum is familiar with it. If it interests you, here is the site:
Journal of the Society of Basque Studies in America

Chao, Betty

[Art: I fixed the link and added lines between paragraphs.]
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Celtica



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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Location: Florida

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to first address Carlos' post. Thank you for taking the time to write in English. I know that such a process can be frustrating; especially in conversations of such a meticulous nature. I again apologize for my inability to communicate to you in a language that you're more comfortable using. Thus far, though, I think the communication process has been working out quite well.

You raise some very good points on Basque culture and I agree that it's integrity has been thoroughly corrupted over the ages. This is a point I commonly bring up in discussions with Basque radicals that enjoy maintaining that the "distinctions" between the Basques and their neighbors make for great barriers between the peoples. I have always supported the idea of a relative homogeneity shared between most Iberians. This is especially reflective in the genetics of the populations.

Incidentally, if the rise of genetic archeology has taught us anything, it's that culture can be transfered to a people without its predominance being a indicator of a peoples direct ancestry. For example, Professor Bryan Sykes - a pioneer in tracing ancestry by DNA - shocked the academic community when he was able to show that most Europeans - particularly Western Europeans - can trace their ancestry back to the Paleolithic/early Neolithic period, rather than the (post-Paleolithic) late Neolithic/Bronze Age. The peoples associated with the latter periods had long been cited as being the primary group modern Europeans are descended from. The genetic evidence contrarily shows that our ancestors are older than that; with some obvious exceptions that had embedded themselves into the population along with the spread of farming, the Indo-European languages/culture, etc.

The points you cite are quite interesting. They especially show how various territorial areas associated with the Basque people took on different cultural forms due to the local circumstances they were subjected to. From what I understand, the "purest" form of Basque culture is reflected in the more rural areas of the region (though I am not sure if such is substantiated in the work you are referring to). I think such facts are important in how we view the rise of cultural adaptation. In case of the ancient Basques, the relative lack of sophistication in the language and culture make it easy to understand how the more sophisticated cultures and languages were able to thrive when given the proper opportunity. Such has been the case throughout European history. At the same time however, there can be no denying that the level -albeit somewhat superficial at times - of preservation of the ancient aspects of their culture and language is no less impressive and such occasional relics are a remarkable phenomenon that continues to inspire further study on the people.

I hope that this book by Villar can eventually be translated. Eventually, I will get around to reeducating myself on the Spanish language. It would certainly be beneficial to me in a number of ways. Thanks again for your input Carlos.

To Betty, I can empathize with your frustration on finding English-language literature on Asturias and Celtiberian history and culture in general. The side-by-side book you mentioned sounds very interesting. That does seem like a helpful way to educate yourself on reading Spanish. How effective has it been for you thus far?

Also, thank you for bringing this publication to our attention. I'm definitely considering ordering/subscribing to it. I guess the best way to ascertain more information on the journal is to get in touch with someone at the Society for Basque Studies in America. I'll be sure to look into that sometime this week.

Thanks also for your input in this discussion.

To Is, that's interesting information on that river in Asturias and town in Xixon. I enjoying getting these little tidbits of information on the region. Don't hesitate to bring more of these sorts of interesting facts to our attention.
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Carlos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art:

Thank you for the corrections on my text. Only a remark: the more appropriate word is not RE-flexive, but flexive. The flexion is a typical characteristic of Indoeuropean languages. There are some world languages whose word forms do not change to express notions as singular, plural, masculine, feminine, "X", "to X", "for X", "of X", etc. Indoeuropean languages use certain changes in the form of the words by addition of some particles to the root. This mechanism is called flexion or declension, and Latin is one of better know languages that use it (remember rosa-rosae). I don't know what is the word in English for Spanish "flexivo", but "re-flexive" is another thing, in the sense of self-referential as you say.

Paul:

Basque (Euskera) is a very difficult language, I really know very little of this language. However, it is clear for me the meaning of one of the river names that you mentioned:

ARANERREKA = ARAN (valley) + ERREKA (river) = "the river of the valley". By the way, ERREKA is a loanword, from Celtic *RICA. Basque is absolutely refractary to any word beggining with a simple R-: ERRAMÓN (Raymond), ERREGEA (the king), etc. From Celtic *RICA derived a lot of common words and toponymous in Asturies: riegu, riega, La Regla, Riegla, regatu, etc. Remember the "Regalina" festivity in Cadaveu, near L.luarca: the Virgin of Riégala.


Erik:

It is not a matter of contraposition of great villages (Celtic, Latin, Indoeuropean placenames) and little settlements (Basque names). If you analyse all the geographical names of Basque Country and Navarre, of course there are a lot of names from Euskera etymology. The problem is the datation of those names.

The most common accepted theories are that Basques are originary from Aquitany, at least in inmediate pre-Roman times, it is to say, from a territory situated to the North of Pyrenees.

For today's Navarre, Romans give us two names for two regions:

- Ager Vasconum for the middle and southern territories. Ager means "cultivated lands".

- Saltus Vasconum for the northern very mountainous region situated in the heart of Pyrenees. Saltus means "wild woodland".

Aquitanians, as ancestors of today's Basques, began a slow displacement in Roman times to the South, in the II-III centuries of Christian era (Pompeius' years). At this time, the main part of Pamplona population was Basque-speakers, reimplacing older Celtiberian inhabitants and a quantity of Iberians.

Basques are at this time not a Rome's ennemy, but an allied people, at least in Spain. However, there was on the contrary in France, where Aquitanians fougth against Romans.

It is commonly assumed that in times of the fall of Roman Empire, this Aquitanian migration over the South increased, first to Navarre, and later to Spanish Basque Country. The maximum of this migration was between V and X centuries.

The Medieval name for Basque Country was Vascongadas, which means "Vasconicatas", "transformed in Basconic". This migration was so complete that, without alterate the genetic corps of older population, obtained the substitution of older languages, mainly more or less corrupted or evolved Latin. This explains the massive Basque placenames of modern Basque Country. In short, a language substitution but not an older (and not too numerous) population extermination.

There is a perhaps interesting for you web site in English:

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/Larry/WebSite/basque.html

Professor Larry Trask (deceased a few years ago) was one of the most recognised scholars on Basque language.

Here:

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Euskara/Larry/lang.lt.html

he tell us:

An ancestral form of Basque, called Aquitanian, is attested in the Roman period in the form of about 400 personal names and 70 divine names. Many of the elements in these names are transparently Basque. Examples: Aq. Nescato, Bq. neskato `young girl'; Aq. Cison, Bq. gizon `man'; Aq. Andere, Bq. andere `lady'; Aq. Sembe-, Bq. seme `son'; Aq. Ombe-, Umme, Bq. ume `child'; Aq. Sahar, Bq. zahar `old'; Aq. Osso-, Bq. otso `wolf'. Aquitanian is chiefly attested north of the Pyrenees, in Gaul; it is only sparsely recorded south of the Pyrenees, and most specialists believe the language must have extended its territory to the south and west after the collapse of Roman power in the west.

Wishes Cool
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Art
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Carlos, then the English word we want is "inflection" and "inflectional". (In British English the noun is "inflexion", but I'm not sure of the adjectival form.) I'll change the original. Thanks!

---------------

Hola Carlos, entonces la palabra inglesa que buscamos es "inflection" and "inflectional". (En el inglés británico el substantivo es "inflexion", pero no estoy seguro sobre la forma adjetiva.) Cambiaré el original.
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Carlos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again, Art.

Here two different maps of primitive Aquitany, later enlarged, and without any relation with modern administrative regional divisions of France:





To remark the name of one of the Aquitanian tribes: AUSCI (pronounced AUSKI in Latin), perhaps in relation with both the Basque root EUSKO and the Aragonese city and province of HUESCA (in old times OSCA)
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Indalecio Fernandez



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Location: San Martín de Podes, Gozón, Asturias

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esto es un extracto de lo que dice D. Claudio Sánchez-Albornoz en su obra de “El Reino de Asturias, orígenes de la nación española” de primera edición en 1921 y en posteriores hasta 1989, al respecto de los pueblos que ocupaban el norte de la península. Hay dos entradas naturales, entrando por Pirineos Orientales, se subiría al norte por la llanura del Ebro y por Pirineos Occidentales por la llanura vasca.
“Se negó en su día y se sigue negando la entrada en España de invasores europeos antes de la llegada de los celtas, pasando por encima de la toponimia iliru-ligur hallada en la meseta septentrional y en las tierras cantábricas y galaicas. Y olvidando que los nombres de los pueblos que aparecen en la costa norteña: várdulos, caristios, cántabros y astures se encuentran en tierras de Iliria y Liguria y que las construcciones circulares de los castros de la antigua Gallaecia no pudieron ser obra de los Celtas. Al enfrentarse a tal abundancia de estos castros se ha de plantear la sospecha de si ello implicó el establecimiento en el país de dominadores que procuraban asegurarse su señorío sobre los naturales o si fueron estos los que se fortificaron contra los recién llegados. Doble conjetura que en todo caso supone la inmigración y no pacífica de gentes extrañas al norte de la península.
Todos eran resultado de complejos entreveros étnicos y culturales. Es incluso segura la fusión de elementos raciales diferentes en tierras vascones: Probablemente se fundieron en ellas los hombres de las cavernas cantábricas con pastores caucásicos llegados no sabemos cuando ni por donde y con inmigrantes mediterráneos, iberos, que habrían remontado el valle del Ebro. Huellas de estas tres etnias quedan en el vasco. Hay elementos en él cantábricos que hacen creer a los cántabros hablando vascón y elementos ibéricos, haciendo imposible negar el parentesco del ibero y del vascón.
Ignoramos la estirpe de los que ocupaban la depresión vasca de hoy, várdulos, caristios y autrigones, solo sabemos que no eran vascones, los diferencian los geógrafos, la arqueología, la lingüística y la historia. Que no hablaban la misma lengua se deduce de los nombres de sus ciudades. La diversificación dialectal del vasco en tal comarca y los extraños parentescos entre dialectos del mismo usada en ella en zonas geográficamente alejadas acreditan su condición de lengua importada. Es probable que se unieran inmigrantes llegados al país en fecha remota. Várdulos aparecen en Iliria (mar Adriatico) y en los Balcanes , Caristios en Liguria (cost noroccidente de Italia) y en Grecia y nadie duda del celtismo de los Autrigones.“
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Art
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He sacado los mensajes de Basque-Catalan por su antisemitismo.
---------------
I've removed the posts by Basque-Catalan due to his anti-semitism.
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Indalecio Fernandez



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Location: San Martín de Podes, Gozón, Asturias

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bien hecho, Art!
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