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A doubt - Is Asturias planning to become independent?
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Tamara



Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:09 pm    Post subject: A doubt - Is Asturias planning to become independent? Reply with quote

after looking and reading many of the subjects in the forum, i came up with a doubt... is asturias planning to become independent, because they talk as if they were not spanish, but like another country... I just wanted to know if they are experiencing the same thing as the Catalanes...

thanks!!Very Happy

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despues de ver y leer muchos de los temas en el foro, me entro una duda... acaso asturias esta planeando volverse independiente? porque hablan como si no fueran españoles y fueran otra nacion... Solo queria saber si esta pasando lo mismo que con los Catalanes

gracias!!Very Happy
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is
Moderator


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Tamara, I don't think most Asturians are for independence. But they are not much for dependence either. It's odd that you have that impression after reading a few posts in the forum. Your post, I am sure, will elicit many different responses.

As for your reference to the Catalans, I don't know what angle is given to news about the different regional/national identities in Mexico. Each place is different and follows its own set of historical and sociological trajectories. The Catalans are indeed very different from mainstream culture out of Madrid, for example. And that makes Spain a much more interesting grouping of nations.

Asturians are in fact very different from other Spaniards, including the Catalans, but very similar to the other Atlantic areas of northern Spain such as Galicia, and even the Basque Country, which lies further east on the border with France. If you ever visit Asturias, I'm quite sure you will understand that politics is only one of the levels involved.
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jmenendezvallina



Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Oviedo

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: one doubt.. Reply with quote

No creo que Asturias quiera ser independiente. Los asturianos sentimos un gran orgullo de ser de aquí, pero somos ESPAÑOLES. Hay una frase célebre que dice algo así como "Asturias es España y lo demás tierra conquistada..." No olvidemos que en Asturias comenzó la reconquista y que, salvo por cuestiones políticas, somos españoles. El problema es siempre el mismo. Asturias ha recibido durante muchos años emigrantes (a la minería, la siderurgia, etc) y como sucede en otras partes de España, son los que necesitan reivindicar su "asturianía" queriendo ser más asturianos que ninguno. Yo me apellido Menéndez Vallina Vega Argüelles, ... Todos los apellidos de mis ancestros son de origen Asturiano... no necesito demostrar NADA, ni tengo que justificarme por que mis antepados sean de Extremadura (por ejemplo). No somos mejores ni peores que la gente de ningún sitio, lo que si es cierto que el aislamiento histórico de nuestra tierra (rodeada de altas montañas y un furioso mar) nos hace, al menos en parte, relativamente diferentes. Asturias se lleva en la sangre allá donde se esté. UN FUERTE ABRAZO A TODOS LOS ASTURIANINOS DEL MUNDO.

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Trans. Is

I don’t think Asturias wants to be independent. Asturians are profoundly proud of where they are from, but we are SPANIARDS. There’s a famous adage that says ‘Asturias is Spain and the rest [of Spain] is conquered land.’ Don’t forget that it was in Asturias that the reconquista (reconquest) began and that despite political debates, we are Spaniards. The problem is always the same. Over many years, Asturias was a magnet for immigrants (to sectors like mining and steel-making) and is the case in other parts of Spain, the children of these immigrants are often the ones who express their Asturian identity more than others. My last names are Menendez, Vallina, Vega, Arguelles—all of them Asturian. I don’t need to prove ANYTHING, nor do I need to explain that my ancestors came from Extremadura [southern Spain], for example. We are no better or no worse than people anywhere. However, it is true that the historic isolation of our land, encircled by a high-altitude mountain chain and an indomitable sea, has made us relatively different. You carry Asturias in your bloodstream wherever you go. A BIG HUG TO ASTURIANS AROUND THE GLOBE.

Tamara wrote:
after looking and reading many of the subjects in the forum, i came up with a doubt... is asturias planning to become independent, because they talk as if they were not spanish, but like another country... I just wanted to know if they are experiencing the same thing as the Catalanes...

thanks!!Very Happy

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despues de ver y leer muchos de los temas en el foro, me entro una duda... acaso asturias esta planeando volverse independiente? porque hablan como si no fueran españoles y fueran otra nacion... Solo queria saber si esta pasando lo mismo que con los Catalanes

gracias!!Very Happy

_________________
Un asturiano que se emociona cuando ve a emigrantes recordar a su tierra.
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El problema con esti tema ye que saca lo pior que hai dientro de caún. La xente ta a la defensiva y acepta bien poco les opiniones contraries.

Les coses que diz jmmenedezvallina provienen de ciertes opiniones de otros rexímenes (basaes en Menéndez Pidal) que güei queden un poco llexanes (dexando aparte que la opinión de los historiadores sobre el tema tenga poco que ver con eses afirmaciones de "cuna de España" y demás).

Creo que hai asturianos con diferentes sentimientos sobre la materia y, siempre que nun se quiera imponer la opinión, paezmen bien toes elles.

Por la mi parte, soi más bien un nacionalista "cultural", creo que los políticos son igual de malos en toes partes y duldo que a Asturies le fuera mellor en solitariu. La diferencia sedría que les perres llevaríanles otros diferentes a los que agora se les lleven.


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The main problem with this issue is that brings out the worst that is inside each one. People are on the defensive and does not accept contrary views.

Jmmendezvallina says things that comes from some other time (based on Menendez Pidal's studies), which today are a bit outdated (leaving aside the views of historians on the subject has little to do with such statements as "the cradle of Spain" and others).

I think there are Asturian with different feelings on the subject, and provided they do not want to impose the view, and I feel allright with all of them.

For my part, I'm more of a nationalist "cultural". I believe that politicians are just as bad everywhere and I doubt that it was better to have an Asturies alone. The only difference would be that those politicians would take the money that now is taking anothers.
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jmenendezvallina



Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Oviedo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Respeto todas las opiniones al respecto y admito que haya quien sienta de esa forma (es más creo que es muy positivo que haya pensamientos en ese sentido). Pienso igual que tu que todas las opiniones son buenas siempre que se respete al resto. No me gustaría que en Asturias se impusiese el asturiano (o bable) normalizado. Lo que no se es que pensarían los de Navia o los de Cabrales cuando tuvieran que hablar una lengua que no es ninguna de la que ellos hablan. La verdad es que es un tema controvertido y creo que se deben respetar Y CONSERVAR todos los bables (oriental, central, occidental,...). Verdaderamente lo yo recuerdo de güaje en el pueblín de mi madre, cerca de Nava, eran esas frases, esos vocablos y esa entonación que no es el asturiano que escucho en la TV autonómica o regional, y que tampoco era el castellano de Valladolid. Tal vez era una mezcla de ambas con muchas influencias. No creo que sea positivo "inventarse" una lengua (normalización), ya que una lengua no deja de ser algo vivo, para captar votos o tener comiendo del pesebre a los amigos afines a tu ideología. Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que los políticos que tenemos (tanto de un lado como de otro, por supuesto) son una panda de vagos que no han hecho nada en su vida y que en lo único que han podido "trabajar" es en cargos políticos impuestos a dedo por sus propios amigos y organizaciones a las que controlan... La verdad es que la democracia en España se parece más a una oligarquía, pero eso ya es harina de otro costal... Saludos coyaciu y a seguir defendiendo las tos idees asina como lo faes, con pasión y convencimientu! (perdona por mi asturiano, al menos el escrito...).

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Trans Is

I respect each person’s opinion on the subjet and I concede there are people who feel that way (in fact, I think it’s a good thing that people may think that way). Like yourself, I’m convinced that all points of view deserve respect as long as they respect those of other people. I wouldn’t like for a standardized Asturian language to be enforced in Asturias. I can’t imagine what people in Navia or Cabrales would think about having to use a language that neither of them speak. I admit it is a controversial subject and I think all Asturian variants of the language should be respected and PRESERVED (eastern, central, western). What I remember fondly from my childhood days in my mother’s village, near Nava, is precisely those sentences and that vocabulary, the speech patterns that I hardly recognize whenever I listen to speakers on regional television. It is certainly not the Castilian Spanish of Valladolid either. Perhaps it is a mix of both of them with other influences. I don’t think it’s felicitous to have ‘invented’ a standardized language because languages are by definition living constructs. Maybe this is being done to sway voters or to have those interested in language rights simply profit from them, together with their ideological buddies. I agree with you that our politicians (on both sides of the political spectrum) are a bunch of no-gooders. They’ve never accomplished anything in their lives and all they can show for themselves is to have had public sector jobs—mostly after having been hand-picked by their cronies or political organizations. Democracy in Spain is more like an oligarchy, but that’s a different story…Greetings, friend, and continue to defend your ideas the way you do, with passion and drive. (Sorry for my badly written Asturian in this last sentence)
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Un asturiano que se emociona cuando ve a emigrantes recordar a su tierra.
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estoy de acuerdo, imposición ni una. Ni asturiano...ni castellano, que también todo hay que decirlo. Libre elección e igualdad: que mis hijos puedan estudiar mayoritariamente en asturiano o en castellano, que la administración me pueda atender en castellano o en asturiano, que la televisión y la radio tenga programación en asturiano o en castellano. Y después cada uno que elija.

En cuanto a la normalización unos pequeños apuntes:

1. El latín escrito es un idioma normalizado, los romanos no hablaban así (figúrate un astur de la Campa Torres la clase de latín que hablaría), pero todo el Imperio Romano podía comunicarse con un lenguaje estandar (hablado y escrito). El italiano es un idioma normalizado que se creó en el siglo XIX para que todos los italianos pudieran entenderse entre ellos. Hoy en día un veneciano y un napolitano hablan sus dialectos, pero pueden recurrir al italiano normalizado para entenderse completamente. Como este ejemplo todas las lenguas modernas (los más recientes y cercanos: catalán, euskera y gallego). El castellano que tú y yo utilizamos en este foro también está normalizado, no es el que yo oigo en la calle, ni el que oí de pequeño, pero tiene que tener un estandar para que yo me pueda entender con un venezolano o con un gaditano (y ojo! que los asturianos hablamos un castellano regular a nivel gramatical y de vocabulario)

2. Siempre que se normaliza algo se "inventa", estoy de acuerdo contigo. Es un precio a pagar para conseguir que la lengua no muera y para eso se necesita un estandar que todos podamos entender y que dé estabilidad a la comunicación. Y sobre todo me refiero a la lengua escrita. Si un tipo de Huelva escribe en el castellano que habla, a mí me va a costar entenderle. Si otro de Guayaquil escribe en el castellano que habla, no te cuento. Afortunadamente, cuando escribimos o hablamos con personas que no son de nuestro entorno geográfico utilizamos un mismo lenguaje con unas mismas reglas, algo, por definición, totalmente artificial. Y entiendo que lo que no es malo para el castellano, no puede serlo para el asturiano.

3. Que el asturiano esté normalizado no va a impedir a ese paisano de Nava seguir hablando como habló toda la vida, sólo va a conseguir que su hijo hable como él, pero sea capaz de escribir y hablar en una lengua que entiendan todos los asturianos y no sólo los de su valle. Ejemplo: Yo vivo en Mallorca, participo en actividades del Centro Asturiano. Con los asturianos hablo en el castellano de Asturias o en asturiano, fuera de allí hablo en castellano estandar, en catalán o en inglés. No he perdido nada por el camino, he ido sumando.

4. Una lengua sólo se conserva si se utiliza y para eso hay que darle facilidades, sobre todo a la nuestra que está en contacto con un gigante como el castellano. Y digo facilidades, no imposiciones (por ejemplo que se aplique la Ley de Promoción del Asturiano y que haya un profesor de asturiano en cada centro siempre que 10 alumnos lo pidan, cosa que año tras año se incumple)

Y tranquilo con lo del asturiano, al fin y al cabo ni tú ni yo pudimos estudiar un mismo lenguaje, así que es normal que cada uno escriba como pueda Laughing

Y perdona si algún comentario de este mensaje te molesta (te aseguro que no es mi intención), pero fuera de Asturias las cosas se sienten más (esa es nuestra virtud y nuestro defecto como pueblo).
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llames, me parece muy bien explicado. Tiene sentido. ¡Me interesaré oír como respondan los demás!

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Llames, that strikes me as very nicely explained. I'll be interested in hearing how others respond!
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jmenendezvallina



Joined: 27 Sep 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Oviedo

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tienes razón. Yo he vivido fuera muchos años (leyenda urbana) y uno está más sensibilizado que dentro. Por fin he vuelto. Te agradezco las aclaraciones. Creo que tienes razón al 99%, el problema es que a mi me da miedo que se pase de un extremo a otro y eso no es bueno. Yo trabajé en un pueblo de Barcelona (en la frontera con Lérida) y NADIE SABÍA HABLARME EN CASTELLANO. Yo temo que se quiera imponer un idioma en base a la eliminación del otro (tal vez lo mismo que se intentó con el castellano en su día). Recuerdo un día discutiendo sobre el topónimo GRADO (Esp), GRAU (Ast) y un lugareño me decía que todo el mundo decía GRAO. En fin, hablamos de cosas vivas, de sentimientos y de muchas cosas. Yo soy asturiano por todos los costados y siento mi tierra como el que más, pero me sentiría igual de Asturiano si hubiera nacido en Londrés y mi lengua de uso común fuera el inglés.
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Un asturiano que se emociona cuando ve a emigrantes recordar a su tierra.
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

¿Qué me vas a contar a mí si vivo en Mallorca? pero creo que lo que está pasando en Galicia, Euskadi y Cataluña (y Baleares y Valencia) es fruto de esos políticos de los que hablamos. Todo llevado al extremo es un error.

Esa es precisamente la amenaza que esgrimen los políticos de turno para evitar la cooficialidad. Pero creo que no tiene sentido. La propuesta del CAO para la cooficiliadad es que quedara reflejada en la reforma del Estatuto y que su desarrollo se realizar en el Parlamento con mayoría de 3/4, eso debería bastar para que la aplicación de la cooficialidad fuera racional y con el visto bueno de una mayoría que representa a la práctica totalidad de Asturias.

El problema es que la lengua se asimila a la política nacionalistas y lo que menos quiere el PSOE y el PP es abrir un nuevo frente. Por eso digo que yo soy un nacionalista cultural, lo único que deseo es poder estudiar y que mis hijos estudien en la lengua de mis mayores (normalizada en la escuela y tradicional en mi casa), lo demás es otra cuestión diferente. Los votos nacionalistas en Asturias son una minoría y creo que no hay peligro de que se convierta en una nueva Cataluña.

Por último, yo no me sentiría igual de asturiano si mi única lengua fuera el inglés. Cada vez que oigo o digo alguna palabra en asturiano me parece oir la voz de mis abuelos y con ellos la de sus abuelos diciéndola conmigo. Ya lo dijo el Nobel de Literatura Seamus Heaney: "cada vez que oigo una palabra en irlandés en un lugar a miles de kilómetros de Irlanda, siento que me tocan el alma". Espero que el asturiano no se pierda, aunque mal camino lleva.

Saludos

Pd. Lo de la toponimia siempre ha creado conflictos. Imagino que cuando se castellanizaron los toponismos en asturiano, a la gente de lugar también le parecería mal. Ahora pasa lo contrario, cuanta gente hay protestando porque en su parroquia pongan Puao cuando ellos, que tienen 50 años, siempre oyeron Poago.
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Betty



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Centerburg, Knox County, Ohio USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am trying to follow this thread; my Spanish is still evolving. Perhaps one of our translators would be willing to share Llames thoughts in English. I sincerely appreciate all the translations. Thank you very much.
Betty
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, it's my fault. I was so immersed in this "conversation" with jmenendezvallina that I forgot "the rest of the world" Laughing

Tomorrow I will start working in it
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Betty with my apologies
Excuse me for my english, but my English is still evolving, too. Wink


Message: Mar Set 30, 2008 6:33 am

Llames wrote:

"I agree, I don't want impositions. Neither ... Castilian or Asturian, that all must be said. Free choice and equality: I want that my children can study mainly in Asturian or in Castilian, that the Government Administration can use Castilian or Asturian, that public television and radio programming in Asturian or in Castilian. And then everyone chooses.

And about standardization of Asturian language a few notes:

1. The writing Latin is a language standard, the Romans didn't speak that Latin (then think in which calls of Latin would speak an asturian native in Roman Empire's ages), but all the Roman Empire could communicate with a standard language (spoken and written). The Italian language is a standard that was created in the nineteenth century for that all the Italians could undertand among them. Today, a Venetian and Neapolitan speak their dialects, but they can appeal to the Italian standard to ensure a complete understanding. That standardization is someting common in all the modern languages (the most recents and in Spain: Catalan, Basque and Galician). The Castilian that you and I use it in this forum is also standard, is not the one I hear on the street, or the one I heard when I was a child, but we must have an standard to which I can understand with a Venezuelan or an Andalusian (Attention! normally the asturian speak a poor Castilian in grammar and vocabulary)

2. Whenever a language is standardized a part of it is an invention I agree with you. It is a price to pay to ensure that the language does not die and for that objetive you need a standard that everyone can understand and to give stability to the communication. And above all I am referring to the written language. If one person from Andalusia writes in "his" Castilian, undestand it will be difficult to me. If another person from Guayaquil (Ecuador) do the same, still more difficult. Fortunately, when we write or speak with persons who are not of our geographical environment we use the same language with the same rules, something, by definition, totally artificial. And I understand that what is not bad for Castilian, can not be for Asturian language.

3. If Asturian get standard that person from Nava (Asturias) could keep talking as he always spoke Asturian, and his child could learn his father's Asturian, but that child will be able to write and speak in an Asturian language that will understand people from all Asturias and not only those who life in his valley. Example: I live in Mallorca (an spanish island in the Mediterranean Sea9, I participate in activities with the Mallorca's Asturian Center. With the Asturians I speak in the Castilian we speak in Asturias or in Asturian. Outside I use standard Castilian, Catalan or English. I haven't lost anything by the way, I've been adding up.

4. A language is retained only if it's useful and for that we need to give facilities, especially ours which is in contact with a giant like Castilian. And I say facilities, not impositions (eg, respect for the Law for Promotion of the Asturian Language which ensures that there will be a teacher of Asturian in each school if 10 pupils request him, which year after year is disregarded)

And don't worry whith your asturian, at the end neither you nor I were able to study that language at school, so it's normal that each one type it different Laughing

And excuse me if any comment in this message bothers you (I assure you that it is not my intention), but outside of Asturias you feel all the things more (that is our strength and our fault as a people). "
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message: Mar Set 30, 2008 9:18 am

jmenendezvallina wrote:

"You're right. I have lived outside Asturias for many years ('urban legend', that is how it knows the Asturian emigrants who emigrated in recent years because of the words of the current president of Asturias who said that it was an urban legend that the Asturians had to leave their land to find work) and one is more aware than within. At last I have come back.

Thank you for the clarifications. I think you're right at 99%, the problem is that I was afraid to go from one extreme to another and that is not good. I worked in a village in Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain) and no one could SPEAK CASTILIAN. I was afraid that in Asturias someone wanted to impose a language based on the elimination of another (perhaps just as was attempted with Castilian in his days).

I remember one day talking about a place named GRADO (Esp), GRAU (Ast) and a villager told me that everybody knew that place as GRAO. Anyway, we talk about living things, and feelings of many things.

I am an asturian by all sides and I feel my land as the most, but I feel as asturian as I feel if I was born in London and my language commonly used was English."
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Llames



Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 120
Location: Xixón (Asturies)

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Message Mar Set 30, 2008 1:38 pm

Llames wrote:

"What are you going to tell me if I live in Mallorca (an spanish island on the Mediterranean Sea where catalan is the native language?) but I think that what is happening in Galicia, Catalonia and the Basque Country (and the Balearic Islands and Valencia) is the fruit of those politicians whom we spoke. Everything taken to the extreme is a mistake.

That is precisely the threat brandished by asturian politicians in office to avoid co-officiality of Asturian language in Asturias. But I think it makes no sense. CAO's proposal (CAO is an NGO that defends the Asturian Language) for the co-officiality in the reform of the Statute of Asturias (a sort of Constitution for the region) is that this co-officiality must be developed in the Asturian Parliament with majority of 3 / 4, I think is enough to secure the racionality ot this measure to have the approval of a majority that represents virtually all of Asturias.

The problem is that the language is linked to nationalist politics and what PSOE and PP (majority parties in Spain) least want is to open a new front against the idea of a Spain united. That is why I say that I am a cultural nationalist, the only thing I wish is to study and also my children in the language of my biggest (standard in school and traditional in my house), other things are other things. The nacionalists votes in Asturias are a minority and I think that there is no danger of becoming a new Catalonia.

Finally, I would not feel as asturian as I feel if my only language was English. Every time I hear or say any words in Asturian seems to me to hear the voice of my grandparents and with them his grandparents saying with me. The Nobel Prize for Literature Seamus Heaney explain it very well: "Every time I hear a word in Irish in a place thousands of miles from Ireland, I feel that something touch my soul." I hope that Asturian Language don't get lost, though evil path leads.

Greetings

Pd. The toponymy has always created conflicts. I imagine that when the dictator Franco and his bureaucrats translated into Castilian the place names in Asturian, the Asturians didn't like them. Now the opposite happens, they are translated those castilian place names in its originals forms in Asturian and now people are protesting because in his parish they put Puao (asturian), and they've been hearing Poago (castilian) for the last 50 years."
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Villamil



Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 42
Location: Uviéu

PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non, Asturies nun ta albidrando en facese una nación llibre. Sicasí, nel mio camientu y acordies cola situación, cuido que nun mos diría munchu peor siendo independientes de lu que mos va anguañu siendo parte d'España. Seique ye l'hora de camudar, l'hora d'azuñar una nuea clas d'autogobiernu, quiciabes... magar que veo al pueblu asturianu allieanau asgaya comu pa atalantar esa ideya. Somos españoles y nun hai más que falar...

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No, Asturies is not planning to become a free nation. Nonetheless, in my opinion and given all the circumstances, I guess we would not be much worse being independient than we are nowadays being part of Spain. Maybe it's time to change, time to try a new way of self-government, perhaps... although I see the asturian people too much alienated to consider, at least, such an approach. We are spanish and it's enough...

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No, Asturies no está planeando independizarse. No obstante, en mi opinión y dadas las circunstancias, supongo que no nos iría mucho peor siendo independientes de lo que nos va ahora siendo parte de España. Quizá es tiempo de cambiar, el momento de probar nuevas formas de autogobierno, tal vez... aunque veo a la población asturiana excesivamente alienada para plantearse siquiera semejante planteamiento. Somos españoles y punto.
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