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Mi identidad cultural/My cultural identity

 
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Eric Smith Fernandez



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: Granite City Illinois

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Mi identidad cultural/My cultural identity Reply with quote

I'm an education major. Last semester, i took a course on culture in education. I had the oportunity to explain my cultural identity. I used the information I gathered from family stories and from the forum.

I understand my information is not %100 correct. I included more generalized information about Spain (Like the Osburne Bull flag) than about Asturies. You have to remember, i presented this to a bunch of 20 year old's who don't know Spain from Mexico, let alone Asturias from Spain.

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Ycq0k9wuo

I hope to get some feedback.

Eric

---------------------------------------------------------

Soy un estudiante con especialidad de ense~nar castellano. El semestre pasado tome' un curso sobre la cultura y la educacio'n. Tuve la oportunidad de explicar mi identidad cultural. Use' la informacio'n familiar y la ma's del foru.

Yo se' que la informacio'n mia no es %100 por ciento correcta. Inclui' ma's informacio'n sobre Espan~a que Asturies. (Por ej. La bandera espan~ol con el toro Osbourne). Os recordai's que la presente' a un grupo de estudiantes estadounidenses de las edades de 20 an~os que no conozcen Espan~a de Me'xico lo menos Asturies de Espan~a.

Espero que me dai's respuestas,

aqui' es el hilo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Ycq0k9wuo
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Carlos
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Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 528
Location: Xixón

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric, do you know that the "Osborne Bull" is assumed as one of their symbols by the part of the Spanish fascists?

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Eric Smith Fernandez



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: Granite City Illinois

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Carlos, had i known that, i wouldn't have used it in my project. I don't want to offend anyone. I definately tell my friends about the gaitas and sidra and most just don't understand.They often times confuse the culture of Spain, with that of our neighbors Mexico. They don't understand the difference in the culture or food. To my knowledge, no one in Spain eats tacos on a regular basis. Most americans don't have a clue about culture outside of our borders. I'll do my best to clue them in.

Puxa Asturies!

Eric
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granda



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would never considered the Osborne bull to be a Fascist symbol. It is the flag itself regardless of the print on it what it is considered fascist. Would you consider all the sports supports (i.e. football or basketball) that display the flag with the bull to be fascists? Would you consider that the Spanish soldiers that go in an international mission and carry the flag to be fascists? Would you consider fascists all the Spanish drivers that drive with the sticker of the bull on the back of their cars....

Of course they are fascists that assume the Osborne bull as a part of their identity as fascists, but this is totally wrong


The problem is that forever one of the symbols of the fascists in Spain has been the flag. We are now suffering a "war of symbols" in Spain, and the Bull is playing a part.

Enclosed you find images of some of the flags displayed during the last big demonstration in Madrid against the terrorists:


This can be considered the real fascist flag showing the Eagle of San Juan, also known as the nestling. This is the real fascist= franquista flag



Flag of San Andres or Borgona (Aaustrias 1517) used by the Spanish Army until the 2nd Republic


Osborne flag


Plain Spanish flag (no symbol on it)


What it is called Consitutional flag. However the real consitutional flag is the plain one, as the symbol was added later.

The Osborne's bull can't never be considered a fascist symbol, but a symbol of Spain.


[/img]
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, thanks for sharing your project with us, Eric. I really enjoyed the old pictures in the clip and your integrating your great-grandfather from Kentucky with your great-grandfather from La Ren. Also liked the pic where you try to pour cider. You should raise your arm over your head next time...

I obviously understand why you seem to have to justify the more Spanish-centered themes, as opposed to solely Asturian themes that your audience would not capture. However, I think it's important to educate and go beyond stereotypes, sometimes even break stereotypes in unconventional ways, and I would have used the opportunity to highlight what La Ren is like in real life: cows, green rolling hills, madrenes, cider, bagpipe music, folixa, fabes, a certain kind of humor and the sea.

Your great-grandfather certainly had very little to do, I presume, with an Osborne bull. That was a marketing ploy used by cognac (?) makers in southern Spain to sell their product. Still, because I realize people in Illinois, as you point out, have a hard time separating Spain from Mexico, you had to bring the bar down a bit. I usually don't drop the bar whenever I explain Asturias because it would distort the truth. And you'd be surprised how much interest it generates in what you initially perceived as a culturally less-literate audience.

You just need to challenge people to spark an interest. Then they are more receptive. Sometimes, it's easier to go all the way than half way. There's always time for fine-tuning later, as long as the main characterizations are right.

As for the symbols in contemporary Spain, Granda is right that the Osborne bull is not entirely a fascist symbol. To me, it certainly is alien to Asturias. And like Carlos says, it's often taken up as a symbol of 'Spanishness' that is vacant in the north. But it's not entirely an expression of fascism either. To me, it's just plain 'macho' or redneck, something stuck on cars by 19-year-olds with a sports car and a mystique about Spanish bravado. This mystique doesn't really hold in Asturias, or Galicia, or the Basque Country. But it's there just like the Confederate flag on a pickup truck; ugly to us in the north, but there nonetheless.

____

Muitas gracias, Eric, por compartir con nos el tou proyeutu de clas. A min prestaronme abondo esas semeyas que ties de la tua familia, ya tamen la forma d’integrar la hestoria del tou bisbuolo de Kentucky cona del buolo de La Ren. Lo que ia echar sidra, inda ties camin pur fader, ne! Pero nun t’esmolezas que ia cuestion de prautica. Pa la prosima, xube esi brazu.

Sei de lo que falas cuando xustificas la iconografia espanola de la tua presentacion, en cuenta de una iconografia asturiana dafeitu, porque la xente nun sedria a entendela. Sicasi, you cuido que ia importante educar a la xente ya dir mas p’al.lo de los estereotipos, dacuandu xebrandolos. Na tua situacion you tendrialo feito d’outra manera. Tendria falao de cumu ia la vida na Ren: les xates, los praos, les madrenes, la sidra, la gaita, la folixa, les fabes, la cona asturiana ya la mar.

Tou bis-buolo dexuro que tenia bien pouco que ver con un guei d’Osborne. Eso foi un producto de marketing d’empresarios andaluces que fain brandy nel sur d’Espana. Sicasi, cumu ia nidio que n’Illinois xa tienen abondo con estremar ente Espana ya Mexico, baxaras el tou lliston una migaya. Nel miou casu, nun baxo el lliston al desplicar a xente de fora lu que ia Asturias, porque nun sedria la verda. Ia tan simple cumo eso. Ablucarias de cuanto interes ias a xenerar pente la xente con menos bayura cultural. Namai ties que reta-ys con una idega que-ys abulta rara. Entos, tan mas aliel.los a lo que dices ya chegas mas l.lonxe. Siempre hai tiempu pa recular un pouco ya fader ‘fine-tuning’.

No que cinca los simbolos anguanu n’Espana, cuido que tien razon Granda cuando diz qu’el guei d’Osborne nun ia un simbolo namai de ‘fachas’. Pa min, nun tien nin un res que ver con Asturias. Ya cumo diz Carlos, ia un simbolo d’espanolida que nun hai nel norte del estau espanol. Pero nun creo que ia un icono fascista tampouco. Abultame mas cumo daque ‘macho’ (redneck eiqui n’America), una pegadiel.la que l.lantan los rapazos de 19 anos nel sou Ibiza TDI pa gastar imaxen de paisanos. Seique esa asociacion de guei ya machismo gastase pouco n’Asturias, Galicia ya’l Pais Vasco. Pa nos n’America, ia cumo la xente que l.leva pegadiel.las de la bandeira confederada (estaos del sur d’EEUU): ia daque feo, pero que-ys vas fader a la xente que lu tien nel sou pickup?


Last edited by is on Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Bob
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Joined: 24 Feb 2003
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Location: Connecticut and Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osborne, names after its English founder, makes sherries and other wines.
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granda



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really agree with Is says in his post. I really find very, very frustating explaing to foreigners where I am coming from. Specially if they dont know anything about Asturias or Spain.

Firstly you really have to put Asturias in place (geographically speaking) to start speaking about the same, what Eric did was totally correct and using the Spanish flag (with or without the bull) helped to put Asturias in place.

The problem I face when I speak about Asturias and the north of Spain is when a lot of people asker whether I am basque and if we have terrorists attacks in Asturias grrrrrrrrrrrrr Sad

However and as Is says we have a lot of different cultural references: cows, green rolling hills, madrenes, cider, bagpipe music, folixa, fabes, a certain kind of humor and the sea what when explain, that help to explain what we are and what make Asturias what it is.

Coming back to the Osborne bull and the symbols. I worked in Cataluna a few years back, and in the back of the car there were only two types of stickers: on one side the osborne bull (used by Spaniards usually emigrants in Cataluna) and on the other hand the banyoles' donkey (used by Catalans) For all that you don't know the Catalan donkey is the typical animal from Cataluna that it is close to extintion as those animals are not longer used in farming tasks. It is used a symbol of the unlike extincion of Catalan language by Catalans (independists or not)



In my case my simbol has always been an Asturias Paraiso Natural sticker, an escanciador and the cross of Victory







Here in Dubai I use the same stickers and the only question that comes to the mind of the people that see the cross is: are you christian? (another type of symbol)

I haven't been in the South of Spain for quite a long time but I am sure that the Osborne bull over there is a symbol of Spain for nearly everybody.
Do you know that there are five Osborne bulls in Asturias for 2 in Madrid, 0 in Murcia and 0 Cantabria? Does this mean that we drink more brandy (no cognac) than our neighbours?
I can only think of three bulls. One is on the 'Y' motorway going to Aviles from Oviedo and Gijon on the right hand side. Another one is going from Oviedo to Grado on the left hand side and the third one is in Llanes
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, I thought that the Osborne bull might raise eyebrows but I didn't realize how negative a symbol it had become in Asturias.

I realize that those who want to keep Spain united as one country might be more conservative and perhaps their grandfathers were Fascists, but are they necessarily Fascist now? Maintaining the union of the country and fascism can be separate issues.

--------------------

Ja, pensaba que el toro de Osborne podría plantear cejas, pero no se dio cuenta de que se ha convertido ser un símbolo tan negativo en Asturias.

Me doy cuenta de que los que quieren mantener España unida como un solo país podría ser más conservadores y tal vez sus abuelos eran fascistas, pero son necesariamente fascistas ahora? Mantenimiento del unión de estado y fascismo pueden ser distintas cosas.
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art, I didn't mean the Osborne bull had automatic 'negative' emotional triggers for people in northern Spain. My point is that it just lacks triggers. And among some people, it's considered a foreign icon because it doesn't fit in the local cosmogony of ideas/things.

Imagine the opposite: a bagpiper of Sidra El Gaitero on a huge highway billboard in southern Extremadura. How deep can that icon go for people there or in La Mancha or in Valencia? Indifference is probably more accurate than exclusively negative triggers.

As to your question, about all those who favor keeping Spain a united state, no, they are certainly not all fascists. But many among them would definitely be right-wingers, sometimes borderline fascists.
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Is. Yes, I understood that you weren't reacting to the bull. I should have been clearer.

Before Eric posted the link to his video here, he and I talked about his video. I told him that the flag and bull might provoke a reaction, but I was surprised by how intense Carlos' reaction seemed. That could be because Carlos was writing in English and not in his native language. As we've noted before, the emotional aspect of language is truly difficult to master.

About Spain's fascists, that's what I was thinking, too, that those with fascist tendencies would generally be supportive of a unified Spain and a "monoculture."

I suppose that anyone who was educated under Franco would tend to accept what they were taught in school: that Spain is one culture. (Is that what was taught?) So what seems fascist might just be uncritical acceptance of what was taught to them by fascists.

------------------------

Hola, Is. Sí, entendí que no reaccionaste al toro. Debería explicarme mejor.

Antes de que Eric fijó el eslabón para su video aquí, él y yo hablamos de su vídeo. Le dije que que la bandera y el toro pudieron provocar una reacción, pero me dio sorprendido la intensidad de la reacción de Carlos. Es posible que sucedió porque Carlos escribió en inglés y no en su materna. Como hemos observado antes, dominar el aspecto emocional de las idiomas es verdaderamente difícil.

Sobre los fascistas españoles, eso es lo que pensaba, también, que esas personas con tendencias fascistas generalmente apoyarían una España unificada y un "monocultura".

Supongo que las personas quienes fueron alumno en las escuelas de la época de Franco tenderían a aceptar a lo que fueron enseñados en escuela: que España es una cultura. (¿Es lo que se enseñaba?) Sí es así, tal vez lo qué parece fascista sea solamente la aceptación acrítica de lo qué fue enseñada por las fascistas.
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Carlos
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Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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Location: Xixón

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caramba, pues ahora el sorprendido soy yo. ¿La intensidad de mi reacción? Pero si sólo dije que si Eric conocía el dato de que ese símbolo era usado por los fachas Shocked

De todas formas, en algún momento, cuando disponga de algo más de tiempo, abriré un nuevo hilo acerca de la historia de esa figura, que desde luego, en mi opinión, no es tan inocua como le parece a mucha gente. Pero eso ya lo explicaré con más detalles. Rolling Eyes

Please, a good translation for Eric.

Whishes Wink

-------------------------
Trans. Art

Good heavens, now I'm the one who's surprised. The intensity of my reaction? But if I only asked if Eric knew the information that this symbol was used by the fascists. Shocked

In any case, at some time, when I have a little more of time, I will open a new thread about the history of that image which, of course, in my opinion, is not as innocuous as it appears to many people. But I will explain that at greater length then. Rolling Eyes

Best wishes, Wink
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Art
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sí, también estaba preguntándome si recordaba bien lo que escribiste, Carlos. Y ahora que lo leo otra, vez veo que no era una mensaje de fuerza. ¡Lo siento! Lo que sí era de fuerza, para mí, era declarar el toro fascista, en el sentido de que es mucho más fuerte que pensaba probable. Pero hay que decir que no sé nada de nada sobre los símbolos de los fascistas allí.

--------------------

Yep, I was wondering myself whether I remembered clearly what you wrote, Carlos. And now that I've read it another time, I see that there wasn't a particularly strong message. Sorry about that! What was strong, for me, was declaring the bull a fascist symbol, in the sense that it was a lot stronger than I would have thought likely. But I should also say that I know absolutely nothing about the fascist symbols over there.


Last edited by Art on Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Eric Smith Fernandez



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: Granite City Illinois

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola tios,

Estoy bien. No estoy enojado con nadie. Yo entendí la pregunta de Carlos,

"Eric, do you know that the "Osborne Bull" is assumed as one of their symbols by the part of the Spanish fascists? "

Carlos solo quiso saber si yo supe la historia sobre la bandera antes. Yo no la sabía. Es que, cuando escribo o traduzco alguna cosa no puedo expresarme bien. Por ejemplo, "¿Cómo muestra lenguaje del cuerpo o emoción en un email?" A mi me gusta la historia y aprender cosas nuevas. Es por qué soy miembro de este sitio.

Gracias a todos de aluminarme de esa información
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Art
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fear that I've been thinking and writing too quickly to express myself clearly.

Given Spain's history, I can see how the bull might stimulate mental associations with fascism.

I keep coming back to Is' idea on the bull.
Is wrote:
... To me, it's just plain 'macho' or redneck, something stuck on cars by 19-year-olds with a sports car and a mystique about Spanish bravado. This mystique doesn't really hold in Asturias, or Galicia, or the Basque Country. But it's there just like the Confederate flag on a pickup truck; ugly to us in the north, but there nonetheless. ...

Although I have no idea of the role of machismo in Asturias, that'd be an interesting thread in itself. Is' thoughts support the idea that young men are more or less the same everywhere. Of course, anywhere there would surely be a variety of patterns for being a young man.

It's interesting, though, that there is lack of agreement on whether the Osborne bull is a fascist symbol. I'm still not sure how to interpret that detail.

There may be a wide gulf (large difference) between a symbol's history (Carlos' history) and the way those who use the symbol view it (Is' young men).

------------------

Temo que he sido pensando y escribiendo demasiado rápidamente para expresarme claramente.

Dado la historia de España, puedo entender cómo es que el toro pudo estimular asociaciones mentales con fascismo.

Mi pensamiento regresa a la idea de Is sobre el toro.
Is wrote:
... Abultame mas cumo daque ‘macho’ (redneck eiqui n’America), una pegadiel.la que l.lantan los rapazos de 19 anos nel sou Ibiza TDI pa gastar imaxen de paisanos. Seique esa asociacion de guei ya machismo gastase pouco n’Asturias, Galicia ya’l Pais Vasco. Pa nos n’America, ia cumo la xente que l.leva pegadiel.las de la bandeira confederada (estaos del sur d’EEUU): ia daque feo, pero que-ys vas fader a la xente que lu tien nel sou pickup? ...

Aunque no tenga ninguna idea del papel del machismo en Asturias, esa sería un tema interesante en sí mismo. El pensamiento de Is apoya la idea que los hombres jóvenes son más o menos iguales por todas partes. Por supuesto, en cualquier parte, hay también diversos patrones para ser un hombre joven.

Es interesante, aunque, que hay una carencia del acuerdo sobre si o no el
toro de Osborne es un símbolo fascista. Aún no sé cómo interpretar ese detalle.

Quizás hay un abismo amplio (diferencia grande) entra la historia del símbolo y la manera en que los que usan un símbolo verlo (los chicos de Is).
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granda



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming back to the bull and machismo I would recommend everybody to see the film Jamon, Jamon (1992) from Bigas Lunas, Winner of the Silver Lion Award Venice Film Festival and starring Javier Bardem and Penelope Cruz



(in the film he is a chulo (pimp?) type of person, wannabe bullfighter that works in place where hams are cured) in a way this is the kind of person is the same one that Is mentioned in his post.

I can identify the bull with this kind of Spanish person. However for me it is very difficult to identify the idea of the bull and facism. The image of the bull as image of Spain is relatively new (no more than 20 years) and never in its origen was considered as fascist symbol but a symbol of Spain.

In 1988 after joining European Union and due to the new common European laws, all the publicity banners in the roads where removed, with the only exception of the Osborne bull. The reason for that was that the bull was a icon or symbol of Spain. The bull became known as "The Reprieved bull of Osborne"

Several years later Osborne tried to open some lawsuits against several companies using the image of the bull in Tshirts, lighters, fridge magnets and all type of souvenirs. However the cases weren't even opened as they accepted a few years ago the bull as a symbol of Spain.

--------------------------------

Volviendo al torol y el machismo , recomiendo a todo el mundo la pelicula Jamon, Jamon (1992) de Bigas Lunas, ganadora del Leon de Plata del Festival de Venecia y con Javier Bardem y Penelope Cruz



En la pelicula el es un chulo aspirante a torero que trabaja en un secadero de jamones.. Este el tipo de persona que asimilo con la que menciona Is en su post.

Yo puedo identificar eltoro con ese tipo de persona. Sin embargo, es muy dificil para mi indenticar la idea del todo con el fascism. El toro como imagen de Espana es algo relativament nuevo (no mas de 20 anos) y nunca desde sus origenes fue considerado un simbolofascista sino de Espana.

En el año de 1988 por nueva legislación europea, se dictamina que todo anuncio publicitario debe desaparecer de las vías, y así se cumplió a cabalidad, exceptuando al mismísimo toro. El Toro se quedó,y se alegó que era ya un icono de la cultura española,. Desde ese momento, la figura fue conocida como " El toro indultado de Osborne".

Años más tarde,Osborne entro en una serie de demandasl demandando y pidiendo indemnizaciones a diversos locales por usar la figura del toro en camisetas, llaveros, imanes, y cientos de productos de souvenir sin el consentimiento de la empresa. Lógicamente, estas demandas no fueron fructíferas ya que ellos mismos aceptaron el estado del toro como icono español.
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