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Gardening/Cultivar, Sembrar

 
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Eric Smith Fernandez



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: Granite City Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Gardening/Cultivar, Sembrar Reply with quote

What are some good asturian vegetables that can be planted in the U.S.? Can Fabes be planted here? I took down my pool. I have a large spot now where I want to put a garden. I beleive it is too late in the summer for most vegetables. Can I plant Kale in July?

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¿Cuáles son algunos buenos vegetales asturianos que pueden ser plantados en los E.E.U.U.? ¿Se puede cultivar Fabes aquí? Remové mi piscina. Ahora tengo un espacio grande donde quiero poner un jardín. Creo que es demasiado atrasado en el verano para la mayoría de los vegetales. ¿Puedo plantar las berzas en julio?
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Bob
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Joined: 24 Feb 2003
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Location: Connecticut and Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to try planting fabes, I would plants beans from Asturias early in the growing season to maximize the chance of success, but differences in soil, rainfall, and temperature during the growing season could easily make them quite different from fabes grown in Asturias.

I think kale likes cooler weather that the US has been having lately. Kale takes only about 60 days from planting to harvest, so planting in the early fall might work. There are two basic kinds, with many strains of each, curly and smooth leaves. I prefer the smooth leafed kale for ease of cleaning.
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Eric Smith Fernandez



Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 117
Location: Granite City Illinois

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Bob.

Any other suggestions for what to grow? Next year I will have tomatoes of course and would like to grow both bell peppers and other capiscums.
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4461
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kale can be planted in very early spring, too. In Maryland it will overwinter most of the time and then green up again in the spring. But it quickly goes to seed the second year. The birds like that!

The common wisdom in Asturias seems to be that fabes have to be grown in certain locations for best results. Still, you never know whether you´re in such a place until you try.

From what I´ve seen the main vegetables Asturians grow are potatoes and berza, which is sort of a cross between Brussel sprouts and Kale. They don´t actually grow kale in Asturias. Of course, the other big thing would be apples, but the varieties are very different from ours.
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Eric, I brought seeds for berzas and for pimientos de padron back to Washington DC in March, after buying them at a co-op in Asturias. The berza is an Asturian and Galician type of kale, although the guy at the co-op told me there was a Central Asturian (smaller) and a West Asturian (bigger) variety.

Anyway, my friend Sarah has a plot in a community garden in Washington DC. She's been to Asturias and loved the pimientos de padron at Tino el Roxu, in Xixon. So I brought seeds back for her, as well as berza seeds.

She gives me regular updates on how they are doing off of 16th St. Results? They did not take. For both, you first need to plant the seeds in a pot and then transplant the seedling into the garden. But she hasn't gotten past step 1 because of the heat. So she's going to wait for cooler weather before trying again.

I imagine you have a similar mix of hot, humid weather in Illinois during the summer...
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4461
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grew berza this summer here in Maryland and was surprised that it did very well. It looks much more like collards than kale.

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Cultivó berza este verano en Maryland y me sorprendió que crecí myt bien. Parece mucho más a "collards" (un col parecido) que a rizada (kale).
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Terechu
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1554
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best beans for fabada are said to be those grown on the banks of the Narcea and Nalón Rivers (Vega del Narcea, Vega del Nalón) close to, but not on the coast. The salty air makes their skin tender, but they won't thrive too close to the coast.
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
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Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a preferred region for growing berza?

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¿Hay una región preferida para cultivar berza?
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admit to being mystified by the berza plant. On my trips down to Asturias from Paris (SNCF high-speed rail to the French Basque Country and then the ALSA to Asturias), one of the first things I notice in the cultural landscape is the appearance of the berza.

It starts on the French side of the Basque Country, more or less south of Biarritz. You can see small vegetable patches with a few berza stalks. They strike me as smaller than the Asturian variety, but berzas they must be. Crossing the region of Cantabria, I don't recall seeing them, although I'm pretty sure they exist. Once you get to Asturias, you can see them in most people's backyards although I think there is an east to west gradient. They are much more high-profile in West Asturias. Of course, Galicians eat them just as avidly.

One of the weirdest moments in Asturias-related stuff was the discovery not only of horros (granaries on stilts) in northern Turkey, but also the fact that people grew berzas next to them. In Turkish, the berza is known as Karalahana or Lahana. I bought some seeds in Sinop and they are over at my uncle's in Asturias. We haven't tried planting them yet. But when they grow, we wonder if locals will be able to tell the difference.

Also, on a recent trip to Co. Kerry in Ireland, I only saw a single vegetable patch. It had a berza plant with a long stock and broad leaves.

For skeptics among you, here are three shots of the northern Turkish take on the berza:






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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
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Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

¡Yeah, that's an eerie photo with the col plants and horreo! The plant looks a bit different, but it's hard to see the plant clearly.

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¡Sí, esa foto con la col y el horreo es muy inquietante! La planta parece un poco distinta, pero es difícil verla claramente.
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Terechu
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1554
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:48 am    Post subject: berza/col, kale, Kohl... Reply with quote

http://images.google.es/images?hl=es&q=col&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_esES278ES279&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=ilQBS6akHtGu4Qbj3Oz6Cw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CB8QsAQwAw

Here are photos of all "berza" types. My grandmother called them as follows ( have included the German names for IS):

"berzas" or "Verdura" = green cabbage / Grünkohl
"lombarda" = red cabbage / Rotkohl
"Repollo" = cabagge / Kraut
"Berza rizada" = kale / Wirsing

By the way, I'm still wondering about those Turkish hórreos. If the Turks were Tartars, there's no way the horros are their idea...Whos lived in that area before the Turks?.
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: berza/col, kale, Kohl... Reply with quote

Terechu wrote:
By the way, I'm still wondering about those Turkish hórreos. If the Turks were Tartars, there's no way the horros are their idea...Whos lived in that area before the Turks?.


It depends how far you go back in time because the place (Northern Turkey) has had many settlement waves. If you go back to Greco-Roman times, the area of the Pontus was colonized by Greeks from Miletus. But it was obviously inhabited by other 'local' people. Here is an excerpt from an article citing Neal Ascherson's 'Black Sea: the Birthplace of Civilization and Barbarism' (1995):

"For the ancient Greeks, the Black Sea was axenos (inhospitable) because of its winter storms and the ferocity of the tribes along its shores. The Ionians were the first to establish trade colonies here in the 7th century BC. They were not driven by ideology or conquest, but fish stocks. Sinop itself was founded as a fishing port to feed the island of Miletus. It is still famous for its hamsi (anchovies).

In Book IV of The Histories, written in the 5th century BC, Herodotus describes the wooden granaries of the Geloni on the north coast of the Black Sea. The Geloni, neighbors of the nomadic Scythians, were thought to be descendants of Greek colonists who migrated up the Dnieper River. In the dense forests and marshlands of what is now Ukraine, they built a city entirely of wood. Sadly, Herodotus provides no details about the granaries.

Scythians, Greeks, Thracians, Persians, Sarmatians, Caucasians, Galatians (Celts), Romans, Huns, Goths, Mongols, Turks, Georgians and Slavs all settled on or near the shores of the Black Sea. The successive waves came down the five large rivers that flow into the Black Sea, up through the Bosphorus or from the Central Asian steppe.

But according to Neal Ascherson, the patterns of ethnic mingling have never entirely passed. “The Black Sea shore is a place where the detritus of human migrations and invasions has been deposited for more than 4,000 years. These lands belong to all their people, but also to none of them,” says Ascherson.

A British journalist, Ascherson is the author of ‘Black Sea: the Birthplace of Civilization and Barbarism’ (1995). He uses the region as a microcosm of Eurasia and examines the tension between the centers of power (Greece, Rome) and their periphery. Because the Greeks and Romans were literate, we only have their version of events. Hence, the interpretation is incomplete."


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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4461
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's muy interesting, Is. Looking at the map you posted, it's odd that the land to the east of the Black Sea was called "Iberia." Do you have any info on that, Is?

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Eso es muy interesante, Is. Mirando el mapa que pegaste, me extraña que la tierra al este del Mar Negro se llamaba "Iberia". ¿Tienes alguna información sobre eso, Is?
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is
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art wrote:
Looking at the map you posted, it's odd that the land to the east of the Black Sea was called "Iberia." Mirando el mapa que pegaste, me extraña que la tierra al este del Mar Negro se llamaba "Iberia"


You are getting into the Caucasus here and that's quite a patchwork of peoples, with movements up and down and sideways. Up and down is not particularly easy in the Caucasus, so the driving forces must be compelling.

Look at this map of the early Georgian state (from 600BC to 500AD). Iberia is one of two kingdoms, together with Colchis, to form Georgia.



In the wiki below, where I got the map, you can read about how Georgian noblemen in the 11th century marveled at the fact that there was an Iberia in far-flung Spain. They wanted to visit what they regarded as the 'Georgians of the West'.

You may also have heard of Soviet-era linguists trying to establish links between Armenian (and other Caucasian languages) and Basque (Euskara). This generated an obsession among Basques that they perhaps had distant relatives in far-flung Armenia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
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