El Bable

[tierradenadie]

My grandparents, from central Asturias, used "falar" rather than "hablar" for the English "talk" or "speak."

hola bob, parece que hablas un puñado {o más - ? } de idiomas. ¿por qué sólo escribes en inglés en este foro? saludos desde la zona_cero, peter { 2 1/4 lingüístico }

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Trans. Is

hi Bob, it looks like you speak a handful {or more - ?} of languages. Why do you only write in English in this forum? Greetings from Ground 0, peter {2.25 language-enabled}

[is]

Well, it's true that fala can be applied to a language. Nonetheless the galician-asturian is called fala by their speakers, and given the resemblance (that I perceived) of Is' asturian and galician-asturian I though he was referring to it.

Ties razon, Villamil, n'oucidente d'Asturias (que bien poucos conocen) ta tanto l'asturianu oucidental cumo a fala, ou gallego-asturiano. El nome que-y diu l'academia a la fala del Navia p'al.lo ia eonaviego. El nomatu nun me paez mui aquel.lo. El nome de gallego-asturiano ia academicu tamen [naide nun diz: 'eu falo gallego-asturiano'].

La xente del l.lugar dacuandu diz a fala ou galego, pero el casu ia que falan lo que falan ya nun hai esa vergona qu'esiste no resto d'Asturias pa cona l.lingua l.lariega. Xube un dia de mercau pa Bual ou Grandas ya pon la oreya: naide nun fala castel.lan.

Nos en casa, porque dibamos muitu pa Grandas de nenos ya miou pai tira-y muitu esa zona, tamos un pouco ente'l Palu p'aco ya'l Palu p'al.lo. Sicasi, no conceyu d'Ayande tamos na l.linde con Galicia ya ia normal que tengamos muitas cousas en comun. Mesmo n'Ayande hai duas zonas bien estremadas: los que falan asturianu oucidental ya los que tan pal outru l.lau (Armenande, Santo Miyao, Vilalain), que falan gal.lego.

No l.lugar d'IS, que ta Tres-la-Marta n'Ayande (Allande), nun te sabria decir lo que falan. Tan tan l.lonxe de La Puela ya tan l.lonxe ya tan cerca del Picu Carondiu!

Pa sentir a fala, escuita la voz n'off no ultimo trabayu de Xera que ia muitu guapu. Eso si, nun sei si esti home ia de Porto Veiga, Navia, Viavelez, Tapia, Castropol ou Figueiras...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBys57iw ... re=related

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You're right, Villamil, in West Asturias (very few people know this area) people speak both West Asturian and Galician-Asturian. The name that the Asturian Language Academy gave to the language spoken west of the Navia River is eonaviego. I'm not convinced of its utility as a label. The name gallego-asturiano is also academic [no one says 'I speak Galician-Asturian'].

People there refer to what they speak as either a fala or simply as galego. But I would say that the point is more that they speak a traditional language handed down through generations and are not ashamed of it, unlike in the rest of Asturias where folks have a strained relationship with the local language. Drive up to Bual or Grandas on market day and listen: no one speaks Castilian Spanish there.

Our personal case at home, again, is not typical. We often spent time as children up in Grandas de Salime because our father loves that area. Therefore, we kind of bridged the language border. After all, in County Ayande we're on the border with Galicia and it's normal that we share many things. Even within County Ayande there are two quite distinct areas: those who speak West Asturian and those who speak Galician or Asturian-Galician in places like Armenande, Santo Miyao or Vilalain.

As for IS, over the mountain pass known as La Marta in Ayande (Allande), I'd be hard pressed to tell you what they speak. They are so far from La Puela and so far and so close from Carondiu Mountain!

To listen to a track in Galician-Asturian, here's a preview of the latest work by Xera that is quite beautiful. The voiceover is by someone from a fishing port in West Asturias But I couldn't tell you if he's from Porto Veiga (Puerto de Vega), Navia, Viavelez, Tapia, Castropol or Figueiras.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBys57iw ... re=related

[mofusu]

Pa sentir a fala, escuita la voz n'off no ultimo trabayu de Xera que ia muitu guapu. Eso si, nun sei si esti home ia de Porto Veiga, Navia, Viavelez, Tapia, Castropol ou Figueiras...

Buenes,
Personalmente paezme que la voz n'off d'esti tema ye la mesma qu'usaben nel so primer discu "Lliendes". Tratábase d'un paisanu del llugar de Lloza en conceyo de Cuaña.
Per otra parte, l'espediente toponímicu de El Franco conseñó la forma El Porto/Viavélez. Del espediente de Navia nun hai noticies, pero ye habitual que la xente llame sólo Veiga a la guapa villa marinera onde fue a morrer Xovellanos.
Saludinos.

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Trans. Is

Hi, I think the voiceover is by the same person that they featured on their first CD titled 'Lliendes'. It was the recording of a man from the village of Lloza in County Cuana (Coana).

Otherwise, the committee for place name changes in County El Franco has decided that Viavelez will now be known as El Porto/Viavelez.

Although I have no news about the committee working in Navia, it is common for locals to refer to their beautiful fishing port as Veiga [in Castilian Spanish it is Puerto de Vega]. Incidentally, Xovellanos [Jovellanos, a 19th century Asturian author and academic] died there.

Regards.

[Villamil]

Ye un asturianu prestosu d'oyir. Gracies pol enllaz

La verdá ye que seique l'asturianu del ocidente ye más puru que'l restu y caltien delles menes y carauterístiques que les otres variedaes perdieran cuantayá pola influyencia del castellanu. Na zona central, amás, sacantes delles partes de les cuenques (que ya non toes) l'amestau ye lo más asemeyau al asturianu que se siente.

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It's pleasant to listen that asturian. Thanks for the link

Maybe the Western asturian is purer than the rest and preserves some characteristics that the other dialects have lost due to the influence of the spanish language. In Central Asturies, except some places, the most similar speech to asturian you can hear is the amestau (it's like spanglish).

[Art]

Villamil's idea is interesting. Is it possible that 100-200 years ago, Asturians everywhere spoke a language (with varations, obviously) closer the current language of Western Asturias?

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La idea de Villamil me interesa. ¿Es posible que hace 100-200 años, asturianos de todas partes hablaban una lengua (con variaciónes, claro) más como la que se habla hoy en Asturias occidental?

[is]

Villamil's idea is interesting. Is it possible that 100-200 years ago, Asturians everywhere spoke a language (with varations, obviously) closer the current language of Western Asturias?
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La idea de Villamil me interesa. ¿Es posible que hace 100-200 años, asturianos de todas partes hablaban una lengua (con variaciónes, claro) más como la que se habla hoy en Asturias occidental?

I've wondered about this as well. When I went hiking around Pena Mayor (Central Asturias) in County Bimenes once, I was stunned to see a mountaintop called 'Picu Trigueiru'. In Central Asturian, it would have been 'Trigueru', without the tendency of West Asturian and Galician of turning vowel sounds into 'ei', 'ou', 'oi', etc.

Another example is the 'Gamoniteiru', the name for a mountain peak overlooking Uvieu/Oviedo, also in Central Asturias. As far as I know the typically West Asturian 'ts' sound or its written equivalent of 'l.l', also known as 'che vaqueira' reaches counties like L.lena (Lena) and Ayer. That was also interesting to me, because I had assumed it didn't exist in Central Asturian.

Maybe Ayandes or Mofusu can point us to medieval sources where the vowel shifts across Asturias were closer to what we speak in West Asturias these days. I wonder if it has to do with the greater influence of Castilian Spanish in Central and Eastern Asturias which gradually softened the vowels away from more archaic forms? And why doesn't Galician have the 'ts' sound for words like Abaniel.la, L.lanteiro, l.lagar, l.lugar, l.laguna, etc?

I'd be interested to find out how the language evolved and whether West Asturian, in a way, is a kind of linguistic repository...

[Ron Gonzalez]

Tierradenadie
I, for one am glad that Bob posts in English. Some of us can't read or write Spanish. This way we all can enjoy the forum. I know we can use Google to translate. That works sometimes, but not all the time. I do thank the people who translate. I know it's not an easy job. Art and others translate their own posts that make it nice. I thank you for that.

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Trans. Is

Yo polo menos allegrome que Bob faiga los sos posts n'ingles. Munchos de nos nin lleemos nin escribimos castellan. N'ingles somos quien a seguir los filos. Home, se que usando los preseos de Google hai maneres de tornar la llingua. Pero dacuandu non furrula bien. Tamien queria da-yos les gracies a los que fain la torna porque se que nun ye cenciellu. Art, por exemplu, ta avezao a tornar lo que pon n'ingles, eso ta mui bien. Gracies, Art.

[Bob]

Tierradenadie,

I post mostly in English because of time constraints. While I read castellano almost as rapidly as I do inglés, writing takes me much more time in a language that - for me - is learned rather than native.

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Trans. Is

Yo faigo los mios posts n'ingles por mor del poco tiempu que tengo. Soi quien a lleer castellan, seique igual de rapido que n'ingles, pero cuestame escribilo. Pa min el castellan nun dexa de ser una llingua que tuve que deprender.

[Art]

Yes, I also appreciate the help of Is, Ana and others in doing translations!

Translating your own posts is a great way to make the forum more inclusive. It's also a great way to learn the language or improve your skills in the other language because you learn words and expressions and get used to using the verbs. Of course, you need a little familiarity with the language to do this because (as Ron says) Google and other machine translators don't do a very good job.

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¡Sí, aprecio también la ayuda de Is, Ana y otros en traducir!

Traducir tus propios mensajes es una gran manera de asegurar que el foro sea más incluyente. También es una gran manera de aprender el idioma o mejorar tus habilidades en el otro idioma, ya que aprendas palabras y expresiones y acostumbres al uso de los verbos. Por supuesto, necesitas un poco de familiaridad con el idioma para hacer esto, porque (como dice Ron) Google y otros traductores de maquina no lo hacen muy bueno.

[mofusu]

I'd be interested to find out how the language evolved and whether West Asturian, in a way, is a kind of linguistic repository...

L'asuntu que comenten Is y Art, sobre la evolución de la llingua asturiana y sobre la estensión de dalgunos fenómenos llingüísticos en ciertes dómines ye bien interesante. Desgraciadamente, fain falta unos conocimientos filolóxicos mui fondos... y esi nun ye'l mio casu .

Pero sí tenemos un llibru que, hasta agora, parezme l'averamientu más suxerente a esti tema:

Viejo Fernández, Xulio. (2003): La formación histórica de la Llingua Asturiana. Ed. Trabe, Uviéu.

Como digo, la comprensión dafechu de les teoríes presentaes en llibru requier de una formación especializao. Pero voi tentar de espresar dalgunes de les conclusiones del profesor Viejo.

1. Nos momentos de primixenia formación del protorromance asturianu, les pautes normatives podían venir d'un centru importante de l'Antigüedá como ye Astorga (capital del "conventus asturum"). Esto vendría a esplicar l'arcaismu de munches de les soluciones del asturianu occidental.
2. Nes dómines medieval y moderna, esos núcleos que yeran a esparder pautes normalizadores fueron Lleón (nos sieglos XII y XIII) y depués Uviéu.
3. Fenómenos de diptongación o la palatización de [l-], que pudieron tener el so orixe en centros de l'Antigüedá como Braga y Astorga, nun llegaron al interior galaicu, quedando nel conventus asturum y pasando a formar parte de fenómenos característicos de dominiu llingüísticu asturiano-lleonés.
4. Los fenómenos de la diptongación de /ej, ow, oj/ y la oposición de xéneru nos posesivos antepuestos, tuvieron una mayor estensión pel territoriu del asturianu-lleonés. Pero por razones socio-polítiques y estilítiques, los centros de poder medievales optaron por un "standard" menos arcaizante. Ye importate señalar que esto pasó en sieglu XII-XIII, colo que podemos descartar la influencia del castellán.

Espero que dalgo d'esto ayude a contestar entruges feches más pa riba nel filu... Ye importante que mos deamos cuenta de que l'asturianu tien 2000 años d'historia y determinaos fenómenos envede 100 años tienen 800.

Yo tamién quería dar les gracies a los traductores de los post. Y prometo que, dientro poco, fairélos billingües (Asturian-English, of course )

Saludín.

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Trans. Is

The topic that Is and Art are discussing about the evolution of Asturian and the spreading of certain linguistic features in the past is certainly very interesting. Unfortunately, one needs to have a linguistics background in order to give an informed opinion, and that is not my case.

However, the book by Xulio Viejo Fernandez, ‘La formacion historica de la llingua asturiana’ [The history of the Asturian language], Trabe Publications, Uvieu [Oviedo] 2003, is a great resource and starting point for this topic.

As I said, to be able to understand the theories put forward in the book, a background in linguistics is best. Here’s an attempt, though, at reformulating some of the conclusions by Professor Viejo.

1. In the gestation of Asturian from its vulgar Latin roots, the standardizing elements may have radiated from an important center of learning at the time such as the town of Astorga (the ancient capital of the ‘Conventus Asturum’ in today’s province of Leon). That would explain much of the archaism in many of the features of West Asturian.
2. In medieval and modern times, the urban centers with that kind of prestige to act as linguistic standard-setters were Leon (from the 12th to the 13th century) and Uvieu [Oviedo, the modern Asturian capital].
3. Features such as the prevalence of the dipthong and tendency to create words with ‘ll’ instead of ‘l’ could have originated in ancient centers of learning such as Braga [Portugal] or Astorga. They did not radiate into the Galician back country and were thus relegated to the Conventus Asturum, thus determining the more salient features of Asturian-Leonese.
4. Features such as the creation of the dipthong form in /ej, ow, oj/ and gender markers in possessive prefixes were more widespread in the territories where Asturian-Leonese was spoken. For sociopolitical and stylistic reasons, the medieval centers of learning opted for a ‘standardized’ language that was less archaic. Keep in mind that these shifts took place in the 12th-13th centuries, and we can therefore say that the shift was not due to the introduction of Castilian-Spanish.

I hope this will be helpful in answering some of the questions further up in this thread. The Asturian language is 2000 years old and certain characteristics instead of being 100 years old, actually go back 800 years.

I also want to thank the translators of the different posts. I promise that I will soon be posting bilingually as well (in Asturian and English, of course).

Reagards,

[Art]

Thanks, Mofusu. Very interesting.

How does the possibility of a standardizing impetus from Astorga explain the old features in West Asturian? Is it because they were far from that center of learning, so they didn't get standardized as thoroughly?

If that's what you mean, then would it be likely that West Asturian is distinctive because it still carries many elements from before the 12th-13th century, i.e. an older form of Asturian?

1. In the gestation of Asturian from its vulgar Latin roots, the standardizing elements may have radiated from an important center of learning at the time such as the town of Astorga (the ancient capital of the ‘Conventus Asturum’ in today’s province of Leon). That would explain much of the archaism in many of the features of West Asturian.

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Gracias, Mofusu. Muy interesante.

¿Cómo es que la posibilidad de una normalización impulsado de Astorga explique las características antiguas en el asturianu occidental? ¿Es porque están lejos de ese centro de aprendizaje, por lo que no se hizo completamente uniforme al estándar?

Si eso es lo que quieres decir, ¿entonces sería probable que asturianu occidental es distintivo, ya que aún lleva a muchos de los elementos que vienen de antes de la 12o al 13o siglo, una forma de asturianu más antigua?

1. Nos momentos de primixenia formación del protorromance asturianu, les pautes normatives podían venir d'un centru importante de l'Antigüedá como ye Astorga (capital del "conventus asturum"). Esto vendría a esplicar l'arcaismu de munches de les soluciones del asturianu occidental.

[Villamil]

Porgoyosu lu que dicis, Mofusu.

Lu de la che na Pola L.lena ye verdá, peru mesmu en Riosa pué sentise. Les mies dos güeles son de les cuenques, una de L.lena y l'otra de Riosa y della vegada tengo-y sentio a la de Riosa falar de los chobos que habia per u vivia. A l'otra güela yera normal oyila dicir perendecuchá, portiecha, cibiecha y coses asina. Siempre me paició abriliega esa carauterística.

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Very interesting, Mofusu.

The che vaqueira is heard in Pola L.lena, that's truth, but even in Riosa can be listened. My two grandmothers are from the cuenques, one of them from L.lena and the other one from Riosa, and I've listened my riosan grandmom saying, for example, chobos instead of llobos.
My other grandmon said very often things like perendecuchá (I don't know how to translate it), portiecha (lock), cibiella (stick) and things like that. I've always found that trait very beautiful.

[mofusu]

How does the possibility of a standardizing impetus from Astorga explain the old features in West Asturian? Is it because they were far from that center of learning, so they didn't get standardized as thoroughly?

If that's what you mean, then would it be likely that West Asturian is distinctive because it still carries many elements from before the 12th-13th century, i.e. an older form of Asturian?

Hola,
Les llingües romances nun son otro que l'adaptación que del llatín ficieron los pueblos autóctonos de los diferentes llugares. Polo tanto, estos centros políticos de l'Antigüedá, nun yeran los que "facía l'estandar", si non más bien los que lu espardían por un territoriu más ampliu (per aciu de la so burocracia, funcionarios, intercambios comerciales...). Nesti casu Astorga, lo que pudo facer foi da-ys más espardimiento a les soluciones propies del occidente del dominiu llingüísticu (Astorga ta bien ceo de Babia, Teberga, Somiedu...).
Respecto a la evolución de los diferentes dialectos de la llingua asturiana creo que foi paralela nel tiempu históricu, lo que pasa ye que por razones sociales y polítiques el pesu de la normalización foi pasando d'unos llugares a otros. Nos primeros momentos, el pesu normalizador pudo tar n'occidente, nos sieglos de la monarquía asturiana pudo tirar pal oriente... De la mesma manera, anguaño, el pesu normalizador del centru esplícase porque concentra'l 90% de la población.

Saludín.

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Trans. Is

Hi,

The languages derived from vulgar Latin are really just the linguistic adaptations to Latin that indigenous people made in the different conquered territories. Therefore, those ancient centers of political power were not in charge of standardizing anything. Rather, they spread certain features of usage through their bureaucratic systems, civil service and commerce.

In this case, Astorga may have contributed to spreading linguistic traits closer to West Asturian. The city, after all, is not far from places like Babia, Teberga, Somiedu...[in northern Leon/Llion and West Asturias]

As for the different dialects of Asturian, the evolution ran a parallel course. However, for political and social reasons, the standardizing thrust shifted from place to place. Initially, usage may have been established in West Asturias and during the period of the Asturian monarchy it may have shifted to East Asturias. Today, linguistic standardization emanates from Central Asturias, which concentrates up to 90% of the population.

Regards.

[Bob]

As someone for whom both castellano and asturianu are learned languages, it seems to me that language changes somewhat gradually from castellano to eastern asturianu, central asturianu, western asturianu, different varieties of gallego and finally portuguese. Not all features are on a continuum, but the trend is fairly evident. There are pockets of variation here and there, with little linguistic isolates.

Languages are living things and they change and evolve over time. I sometimes wonder what effect the different Roman legions (who knows where they were recruited?) may have had, but modern languages are descended from the spoken language, not the classic and literary Latin. Modern Italian dialects are at least as variable as castellano/asturianu.

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Trans. Is

Pa min, que deprendi tanto'l castellan como l'asturianu de mayor, pemeque la llingua va camudando seliquin dende'l castellan al asturianu oriental, d'ehi al asturianu central, pasando pal asturianu occidental, dempues poles variantes del gallegu, pa finar col portugues. Non toes les fales fain parte d'esi continuum, pero ye nidio pa min que hai una evolucion. Sicasis, hai abondos furacos nel camin, incluso igual fenomenos llinguisticos dixebraos del continuum.

Les llingues tan vives y camuden col pasar del tiempu. Yo dacuandu entrugome como influyeron les lexones romanes (quien sabe d'au vinieran?), el casu ye que la llingua falao ye la que se tresmitiera y non el llatin clasicu. Los dialectos moderno del italianu, por exemplu, avezan a tener variantes igual qu'el castellan y l'asturianu.