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Mt. Carondio: A Llastra da Filadoira (dolmen)
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
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Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're absolutely right about the inadequacy of the 25-75 meter limits for two reasons, at least. One is that from what you showed me on our trip to Pola de Allande when we visited a wind installation, it's obvious that they are massive and brutally destructive. Constructing these farms isn't a gentle process. They won't tiptoe around the tulips.

The other is that the remains are part of an environment. We may not even know yet what questions to ask about those areas. It'd be a crime to destroy them.

Now, I'm not a purist. I don't care if there are wind turbines off the coast of Cape Cod or even in the beautiful mountains of Asturias. But it does have to be done in a way that respects the treasures of Western Asturias. Besides the beauty of the place, these remains are the crown jewels of this region!

It is telling that the turbines are all in Western Asturias, where there are fewer residents, less tourism, and less political pull.

---------------------

Tienes toda la razón acerca de la insuficiencia de los límites de 25-75 metros por dos razones, por lo menos. Una es que dada lo que me enseñó en nuestro viaje a La Puela d'Ayande cuando visitamos una instalación eólica, es obvio que son enormes y brutalmente destructivas. La construcción de estas "granjas de viento" no es un proceso sutil. No van a andar de puntillas alrededor de los tulipanes [una referencia irónica a Tiny Tim].

La otra es que los restos forman parte de un entorno. Nosotros ni siquiera sabemos todavía qué preguntar sobre esas zonas. Sería un crimen destruirlas.

Pues, no soy purista. No me importa si hay turbinas de viento al lado de la costa de Cape Cod o incluso en las bellas montañas de Asturias. Pero hay que hacerlo de una manera que respete los tesoros del Occidente de Asturias. ¡Además de la belleza del lugar, estos restos son las joyas de la corona de esta región!

Es revelador que las turbinas están todos en el oeste de Asturias, donde hay menos habitantes, menos turismo y menos poder polítical.
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is
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Location: Yaoundé

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art wrote:
Constructing these farms isn't a gentle process. They won't tiptoe around the tulips...It is telling that the turbines are all in Western Asturias, where there are fewer residents, less tourism, and less political pull...La construcción de estas "granjas de viento" no es un proceso sutil. No van a andar de puntillas alrededor de los tulipanes. Es revelador que las turbinas están todos en el oeste de Asturias, donde hay menos habitantes, menos turismo y menos poder polítical.


That's a great way to put it, Art ('they won't tiptoe around the tulips'). Local archaeologists say you can witness this disregard for historic monuments in Asturias on Sunday mornings, when people are sleeping off the weekend.

The example that one of them gave was the highway construction to Galicia. Drive out to a site like that bright and early on Sunday and you can see crews bulldozing through obstacles. Without supervisors, the crews are left to their own judgment. That is how one of the archaeologists saw a crew tear up a medieval pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela.

And yes, isn't it interesting that all 1,000 wind turbines are going up in West Asturias? These western counties have a lethal combination of low income per capita and low population density. Most of the constituents are old people who just worry about their pension. The PSOE of Asturias controls most of town halls in the west largely because of demographics.

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Ia una manera curiosa de ponelo, Art ('No van a andar de puntillas alrededor de los tulipanes'). Segun amigos arqueologos, podes ser testigo de cumo fain conos monumentos los domingos pula manana de la que la xente inda ta durmiendo.

L'exemplu que me dieran foi l'autopista del oucidente que vei a Galicia. Un domingo pula manana vese cumo tan los equipos cona maquinaria cargandose tou xeito de trabes na carretera. Ensin supervisores, los operarios fain lo que se-ys pide ensin preocupase por outra cousa que terminar sou trabayu. Nun l.lugar vienon cumo una escavadora l.levantaba parte de un camin de pelegrinos a Compostela.

Ya ia verda tamen que los 40 parques eolicos conos sous 1.000 molinos van l.lantalos nel oucidente asturiano. Estos conceyos tienen una combinacion mortal: baxa renta per capita ya pouca densida de poblacion. La mayor parte los vecinos ia xente vieyo col unico enfotu en asegurase la sua pension. El PSOE d'Asturias controla la mayor parte d'estos conceyos gracias a esta demografia.


Last edited by is on Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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is
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The website to raise awareness about Mt. Carondio is not complete yet, but I'm forwarding the address anyway so you can read the letter and the mission statement. Choose between English, Spanish, Asturian and Galician. Disregard the online petition for now as it's not live yet (Oct. 24, 2009):

http://carondio.yolasite.com/manifiestu.php

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Aiqui vei el sitio web sobre Carondio. Inda nun ta funcional dafeitu, pero ia p'amousavos el manifiestu ya las cartas que vamos mandar a la xente. Podese ver n'ingles, castel.lan, asturianu ya gal.lego. L'enllaz a la web conas petiticiones inda non ta viva (a fecha del 24 d'outubre de 2009):

http://carondio.yolasite.com/manifiestu.php
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Art
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The online petition is live now:
http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio [ Art: I corrected the link! ]
Sign on!

---------------------------

La petición en línea está lista ahora:
http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio [ Art: He corregido el eslabón! ]
¡Firmalo!


Last edited by Art on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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is
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject: Numbers to call in Asturias Reply with quote

Here are the contact details of the civil servants in the Asturian Cultural Council (Consejeria de Cultura y Turismo) who are using delay tactics to prevent any one, including the lawyer, to access the file for the wind farm project in Mt. Carondio.

The case will be closed once the 'viewing period' is over and we have less than one month as of late October 2009. Obviously, the 'viewing period' is ironic to say the least since the file is locked up. The gatekeepers are the people listed below.

Mercedes Alvarez (Councilor for Culture): +34 985106710
Jose Luis Vega (Director of Historic Preservation) +34 985106725
Diana Bernardo (Head of Historic Preservation) +34 985108324
Luisa Lobo (Secretary at the Office of Historic Preservation) +34 985107647

Please call these numbers and ask in English, Spanish or Asturian why the appeals to view the file are being ignored. Make sure you identify yourselves and say where you are calling from. The file name is something like 'Parque Eolico de Carondio y Murellos'.

If you want to see the Cultural Council's website before you call:

http://www.asturias.es/portal/site/Asturias/menuitem.29a638a48072f6f1ad2b0210bb30a0a0/?i18n.http.lang=es&vgnextoid=baf9dacb4c42c010VgnVCM100000bb030a0aRCRD
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Ayandés



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art, si puedes borra esa dirección de Efirmas cuando tengas un momento libre. Gracias y perdón por nuestro error.
La hoja de recogida de firmas definitiva es esta:

http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio

Pido perdón a los que ya firmaron por ello. La hoja de Efirmas no funcionaba correctamente y decidimos abrir otra nueva. Si es posible, que vuelvan a firmar en la nueva página porque las otras firmas se van a borrar. Gracias de antemano a todos por apoyar la campaña.

Espero que unas fotos de la sierra de Carondio sirvan para compensar nuestro error Laughing
http://www.panoramio.com/user/3172497

----
Trans. Is

Art, please delete that last posting about Efirmas being live when you have a chance. Thanks and sorry for the mistake. The e-petition website we are going with is this one:

http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio

Sorry to those who signed the previous petition. The Efirmas site was just not working well and we chose to open a new account. If possible, please sign the petition on the new website because the other ones will not count. And thanks to all of you for supporting our cause.

Here is a stream of snapshots of Mt. Carondio to offset any inconveniences caused by our mistake. Laughing

http://www.panoramio.com/user/3172497

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Art
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Ayandes! I fixed the link.
http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio

--------------------

¡Gracias, Ayandes! Correjí el eslabón.
http://petitions.tigweb.org/SOScarondio
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mofusu



Joined: 01 Jan 2008
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Numbers to call in Asturias Reply with quote

Is wrote:
Here are the contact details of the civil servants in the Asturian Cultural Council (Consejeria de Cultura y Turismo) who are using delay tactics to prevent any one, including the lawyer, to access the file for the wind farm project in Mt. Carondio.


Podía intentase tamién na Conseyería de Mediu Ambiente, Ordenación del territoriu y Infraestructures que, paez ser que tien l'espediente completu del asuntu... y nun han poder negase a dalu
CONSEYERU DE MEDIU AMBIENTE, ORDENACIÓN DEL TERRITORIU Y INFRAESTRUCTURES
Francisco González Buendía
T. 985105802
C/ Coronel Aranda 2
Uviéu

Vamos, hai que paralos!
-------

We can also try asking for the full file in the Asturian Environment Council. They got it, and maybe...

F. González Buendía (Councilor for Environment): +34 985105802
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is
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice, Mufosu. I will try contacting the Conseyeria de Mediu Ambiente instead and see if I can actually speak to someone in charge.

The times I've called the 4 office numbers listed above, the delay tactic consists of telling you that they are in a meeting ('estan reunidos') or that they are not in the office. Then they ask for your number so they can call you back, which of course never happens.

The two important people who need to hear about your opposition to the wind farm in Mt. Carondio are the following:

Mercedes Alvarez (Councilor for Culture): +34 985106710
Jose Luis Vega (Director of Historic Preservation) +34 985106725


They are the ones that need to hear that none of us (I presume) is against renewable energy. But that the load of this kind of electricity generation plants needs to be reviewed for a wider distribution. In County Ayande/Allande, the MW per capita produced by its little more than 3,000 people is way beyond what other Asturian counties produce (there is already a huge wind farm there).

But the principle is that you cannot build a wind farm, like you cannot put up a cement works, a steel mill or a supermarket, on what is recognized as archaeological land. Mt. Carondio, again, is the most important repository of dolmens and Neolithic monuments in Asturias. I think it's plain and simple.

Politically, the mayor of Ayande/Allande sells this as 'progress', a mindset in the countryside that damaged Asturias in the 20th century without any checks from civil society at the time.
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is
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the official response from the Principality of Asturias to the request to view the file for the wind farm project in Mt. Cartondio. It was received by the Coordinadora Ecoloxista d'Asturies (CEA, an environmental group suing the Principality).

Luisa Maria Lobo, from a department called 'Proteccion y Regimen Juridico' [Protection and Legal Framework] dated the letter October 23, 2009. But CEA received it 5 days later, on the day the viewing of the file expired.

This was no coincidence. The Asturian administration uses technicalities and opaque legal texts to trump any opposition to projects judged controversial, as is the case of Mt. Carondio.

The letter by Luisa Maria Lobo (Tel. +34 985 106700) argues that access to the file is allowed only if the following conditions are met:

* The name of the legal representation for the Coordinadora Ecoloxista d'Asturies (CEA)
* The subjective interests inherent to the Group and its mandate, and which, in their relation to the preservation of the historic legacy of Asturias, justify its request to view the file of the wind farm at Mt. Carondio.
* The ability of the Group to deal with the Asturian regional administration.

The translation is mine and I cannot vouch for its accuracy as I myself do not understand the text. Attached is the original letter in Castilian Spanish:



Last edited by is on Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really much the same as American legalese. I'm not an attorney, but I've written a few legal briefs to be submitted by attorneys, and won every single case. I can obfuscate with the best of them.

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Trans. Is

Na forma paezse abondo al llinguaxe llegal norteamericano. Nun sou abogau, pero si que tengo escrito dellos testos llegales que mandara a abogaos y ganara tolos casos. Soi quien a enturbiar los testos igual que fain ellos.
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Art
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you translated it about the same as I would, Is. It is interesting the letter is both "loaded" and meaningless at the same time.

In US court cases, I have often seen questions raised about who is a valid "interested party." People are frequently excluded for not being interested parties. The same as this case, it's generally a way to deny plaintiffs their day in court. In some cases, it makes sense because we don't want just anyone suing us. In this case, however, it's clear that the general public should have a right to see the documents (and the right to sue if they aren't given access). I have a hard time imagining what it must do to a person's soul to play these corrupt, odious games.

-------------------------

Creo que lo tradujiste casi lo mismo que lo haría, Is. Es interesante que la letra es tanto "tendenciosa" como carente de sentido.

En los causas en los EE.UU., a menudo he visto que ponen en duda acerca de quién es de una "parte interesada". Gente son menudo excluidos de la causa por no ser partes interesadas. Al igual que este caso, generalmente es una manera de negar a los demandantes su día en corte. Pues, en algunos casos tiene sentido porque no queremos que cualquiera pueda demandernos. En este caso, sin embargo, es claro que el público en general deben tener el derecho de ver los documentos (y tener acceso a los tribunales si no se les da acceso). Para mi es difícil imaginar lo que debe hacer al alma de una persona jugar estos juegos corruptos y odiosos.
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is
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art wrote:
I have a hard time imagining what it must do to a person's soul to play these corrupt, odious games....Para mi es difícil imaginar lo que debe hacer al alma de una persona jugar estos juegos corruptos y odiosos.


I've thought about your comment for a few days, Art. I'm curious as to how someone in the regional administration of Asturias can become a cog in the wheel of the local bureaucracy.

Luisa Maria Lobo is probably someone 'just doing her job'. A civil servant in Asturias is not precisely a guarantee of independent thinking. They are beholden to those further up in the chain of command. In her case, to Mercedes Alvarez, the Cultural Affairs Councilor.

And yet, you have to wonder where their personal thoughts go when they think about their work on their days off. Do they feel guilt or shame? Do they look down or away when similar cases pop up in their personal lives? What does their moral sense say when someone calls to ask why the public cannot access a certain file?

Decidedly, Mt. Carondio and its archaeological/wilderness value is not a life and death issue. But the fact that people like Lobo and her colleagues at the Cultural Council actively participate in twisting the social contract has to come at a cost to their self-perception.

----

Tuviera pensando no que dixeras l'outru dia de personas que fain el trabayu pa los politicos corruptos, incluyendo xuegos odiosos cumo denegar l'acceso a la socieda civil no tema de Carondio. Gustariame saber cumo una persona deixa de ser un individuo con espiritu criticu pa pasar ser parte de la maquina del aparatu alministrativu.

Luis Maria Lobo, la Secretaria na Conseyeria Cultura, dexuro que ia una persona que namai fai sou trabayu. A la xente que fai oposiciones pa puestos de funcionarios nun hai que-ys pedir que piensen de xeito independiente. Tan aliel.los a lo que-ys dicen mas arriba na xerarquia interna. Nesti casu, la Secretaria fai lo que-y mande Mercedes Alvarez, la Conseyeira Cultura.

Sicasi, da que pensar lo que-ys debe pasar pula conciencia a esta xente nos dias que non tan sentaos na oficina pendiente de lo que-ys digan. Sienten vergona ou tienen dalgun remordimientu de conciencia? Miran pa outru l.lau de la que s'enfrentan a cousas d'ambitu personal nas suas vidas? Que-ys pasa a la bruxula moral de la que falan contigo por telefono ya dicen que nun vei ser posible l'accesu al espediente?

Ia verda que Carondio, cona sua riqueza arqueoloxica ya natural, nun ia cuestion de vida ou muerte. Pero si hai xente cumo Maria Luisa Lobo que combayan cona maquinaria del Principau pa torcer las reglas del contrato social, hai que preguntase lo que tien que fader eso a l'autoestima ou auto-percepcion de xente cumo esta.


Last edited by is on Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Art
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose they could think that they're doing the best thing for Asturias' economic future. They could see us as out-of-touch, dreamy radicals. So they're protecting Asturias from the "crazies."

This got me to thinking about the bulldozer drivers who would tear up an ancient artifact if it was in the way because to report it would slow down the job and probably cost a lot more. Maybe it's the similar to when a tradesperson who comes to your house and does a half-assed job. I'm sure that most of them know how to do a better job, but they're not getting paid to do excellent work; they're getting paid to get the job done quickly.

That's because of the way usually we take bids and decide who to hire. It's largely based on price. Also, there is a strong incentive for the worker to finish quickly because the payment for many project contracts is typically based on the task to be done, not the number of hours it takes. That has advantages for both the worker (or especially the company) and the customer. The worker has an incentive to finish quickly so they can earn more per hour. And customers wouldn't want a worker to work slowly just so they can earn more.

I don't usually work by the hour but by the project and I don't like to stop working until the job is done well. But my experience has been that that's a miserable business model because contemporary business is set up to reward quick and unsatisfying labor. I can either charge the same hourly amount as my competition, which would make my work more expensive and thus undesirable, or I can charge the same amount per project and thus earn less per hour than my competitors. Of course my competition and I aren't really offering the same results: many of them work quickly and stop at 80% of "great". Maybe one of you has a solution!

--------------------------------

Supongo que puedan pensar que estén haciendo lo mejor para el futuro económico de Asturies. Y nos veían como radicales y soñadores que no realistas. Entonces, son protegiendo a Asturies de los "locos".

Esto me hizo pensar acerca de los controladores de excavadora (topadora o bulldozer) que destruiría un artefacto antiguo si está donde debe trabajar porque sabe que demoraría el proyecto y, probablemente, hacerlo mucho más caro. Tal vez sea el similar a cuando un obrero que viene a tu casa y hace un trabajo de media culo al aire. [Se traduce "medio culo al aire" como "half-assed"?] Estoy seguro de que la mayoría de ellos saben cómo hacerlo mejor, pero no es para excelencia que se paga, sino que se paga para completar el trabajo rápidamente.

Eso sucede por la forma en que pedimos unas ofertas y decidimos a quién contratáremos. Eso se basa principalmente en el precio. Además, hay un fuerte incentivo para el obrero completarlo rápidamente, porque se paga de los contratos para muchos proyectos se basan normalmente en la tarea que se debe hacer, no en el número de horas que se lleva. Esto tiene ventajas tanto para el obrero (o sobre todo para la empresa) como para el cliente. El trabajador tiene un incentivo para terminar rápidamente para que puedan ganar más por hora. Y los clientes no quieren que un obrero trabaje lentamente para que pueda ganar más.

No suelen trabajar por horas, sino por el proyecto y no me gustaría dejar de trabajar hasta que el trabajo está muy bien hecho. Pero en mi experiencia es un modelo de negocio lamentable porque los negocios contemporáneos son arreglados para recompensar el trabajo que está hecho rápidamente y poco gratificante. O puedo cargar el importe por hora igual que de que mi competencia carga, lo que haría mi trabajo más costoso y por lo tanto indeseable, o puedo cargar la misma cantidad por proyecto y por lo tanto ganaría menos por hora que mis competidores. Por supuesto, mi competencia y yo no en realidad ofrecimos los mismos resultados: muchos de ellos trabajan de forma rápida y paran cuando su trabajo llega al 80% de lo "fenomenal". ¡Tal vez tengas una solución!
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is
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a quick update on the situation at Mt. Carondio as of November 5, 2009, courtesy of the Coordinadora Ecoloxista d'Asturies (CEA). For updates, pictures and the blog visit the Mt. Carondio website:

http://carondio.yolasite.com/english.php

As of November 5, we still do not know how many days are left to access the file for the wind farm project proposed for Mt. Carondio at the Heritage Section of the Asturian Cultural Council. This institution determines the deadlines for accessing and viewing of such files.

However, by law, the Cultural Council must respond to a request to view the file within 1 month of receiving it. Jose Antonio Ballesteros, the lawyer hired by the Coordinadora Ecoloxista d’Asturies (CEA), formally made that request on October 30, 2009.

It is precisely this type of internal administrative procedure that can be used by the Principality of Asturias to restrict public access to controversial files such as the one for Mt. Carondio.

----

A fecha del 5 de noviembre, aun no sabemos cuantos días faltan para poder acceder al expediente sobre el proyecto de parque eólico de Carondio en la Sección de Patrimonio de la Consejería de Cultura. Esto lo determina la propia Consejería según sus criterios.

Lo que si está estipulado por ley es que tienen 1 mes para contestar a la solicitud que presento Jose Antonio Ballesteros, el abogado contratado por la Coordinadora Ecoloxista d’Asturies (CEA), el 30 de octubre de 2009.

Son precisamente estos detalles de administración interna con los que el Principado de Asturias puede estar restringiendo el acceso de la ciudadanía a información sobre temas controvertidos como es el caso de Carondio.
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