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Asociación de descencientes del exilio español
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Terechu
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Asociación de descencientes del exilio español Reply with quote

Para los hijos y nietos de españoles exiliados por la Guerra Civil, que quieran tramitar la ciudadanía española, la Asociación de Descendientes del Exilio Español, cuya presidenta es la ex-eurodiputada Luzdivina García Arias, el mejor sitio para conseguir ayuda con el papeleo.

http://www.exiliados.org/entrada/Frameset.html

http://www.lne.es/secciones/noticia.jsp?pRef=2009061600_37_769003__Nalon-Ayudamos-hijos-nietos-acreditar-descienden-exiliados-conocer-historia
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Terechu, that's very helpful, although you have to be able to read Spanish. This message may be especially so for Asturian-Americans:
http://exiliados.org/foro/index.php?topic=201.msg472#msg472

THE FOLLOWING MAY BE INCORRECT. Please read the messages further below.

It appears to me that the descendants of Asturians who emigrated in the early 20th Century will have trouble because:
  1. Our grandparents arrived before the exile caused by the Civil War and the dictatorship, so we aren't eligible for recognition under the Ley de Memoria Histórica as grandchildren of an exiled person.
  2. Our parents probably weren't registered during their childhood with the consulate as Spanish citizens. Many in my family didn't even get registered with the county for birth certificates until they were in their late teens.This may make it difficult to apply as children of Spanish citizens.

Although this page may be suggesting that we may be able to prove Spanish citizenship even without such registration:
http://exiliados.org/foro/index.php?topic=264.0
Am I reading that correctly?

-----------------------

Gracias, Terechu, ésto es muy útil, aunque hay que ser capaz de leer en español. Este mensaje puede ser especialmente ayudoso para asturiano-americanos:
http://exiliados.org/foro/index.php?topic=201.msg472 # msg472

LO SIGUIENTE PUEDE SER EQUIVOCADO. Se ruega leer los mensajes más abajo.

Me parece que los descendientes de asturianos que emigraron a principios del siglo 20 tendrán problemas debido a que:
  1. Nuestros abuelos llegaron antes del exilio provocado por la Guerra Civil y la dictadora, por lo que no somos elegibles para el reconocimiento en virtud de la Ley de Memoria Histórica como nietos de una persona exiliada.
  2. Nuestros padres probablemente no fueron inscritos en su niñez con un consulado español como ciudadanos. Muchos en mi familia ni siquiera obtuvieron registrados con el condado para certificados de nacimiento hasta que llegaraon a su adolescencia. Lo puede hacer difícil pedir ciudadanía como hijos de ciudadanos españoles.

A pesar de que tal vez esta página sugiera que podamos estar en condiciones de probar la nacionalidad española, incluso sin dicho registro con el consulado:
http://exiliados.org/foro/index.php?topic=264.0
¿Estoy leyendo correctamente?


Last edited by Art on Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvador García recently wrote an email to the moderators about this thread. He has given permission to post his messages here.

Salvador wrote:
I would like to start off by congratulating you on your website as I believe that it serves a very noble purpose. The main reason why I am writing however is because I have seen a lot of misinformation on your site regarding Spanish citizenship for the grandchildren of Spanish nationals due to the Ley de Memoria Historica (LMH). I am the grandchild of Spaniards and have recently acquired Spanish citizenship through this law.

The main discrepancy that I've seen on your site regarding eligibility for citizenship through the LMH is that the grandparent(gp) had to have emigrated after the Spanish Civil War; this is incorrect.

It does not matter when the gp emigrated, but rather that the gp still had Spanish nationality at the moment of his child's (the parent of the grandchild) birth. This can be verified by looking at the birth certficate. If this is the case, than grandchildren can acquire citizenship.

The interested party must provide his/her own birth certficate, parent's and gp's.

American birth certificates must be certified, officially translated and apostilled.

One must have the Grandfather's Spanish birth certificate, regardless of year of birth. If one does not exist with the registro civil as the birth took place prior to 1870, than a baptismal certificate will suffice.

It is very important that names and dates of birth on the birth certificates coincide as this is imperative to determine lineage.

There are only 2 types of grandchildren who cannot opt for Spanish nationality through the LMH:
1.-Those who derive their Spanish heritage solely through the Grandmother and she married someone (presumably the interested party's gp) who was not a Spanish national.
2.- Those whose grandfather no longer had Spanish nationality at the time of their child's (the parent of the grandchild) birth.

I hope that I have been of some help.
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a follow-up email, Salvador answered some questions from me.

Salvador wrote:
There are 3 anexos or anexes under which grandchildren(GC) can opt for Spanish citizenship (SC):

Anexo 1- The children of those who were originariamente españoles despite of place of birth. This is the anex under which I applied as my father was originariamente español because he was born of Spanish nationals(SN), albeit in Mexico. My granparents emigrated in 1924 and my father was born in 1928, so this was 12 and 8 years respectively before the Spanish Civil War kicked off.

Anexo 2- Is for the GC of SN who no longer had SC by the time their child or the parent of the GC was born. It is only in these cases when the interested party has to prove that the granparent emigrated between July 18, 1936- December 31, 1955. This is also the only anex in which those who derive their Spanish heritage solely from their grandmother can opt for SC.

Anexo 3- Is for those children of SN who already had SC under the current Spanish codigo civil's article 20.1 through the law 36/2002. The reason that this would be appealing is because they would in essence upgrade their citizenship from por opcion wich derivative and can be revocable, to de origen which is irrevocable (unless one renounces it) and is the highest form of SC.

http://leymemoria.mjusticia.es/paginas/es/descendientes.html

As to the particulars of my case, like I stated earlier, my GPs emigrated in 1924, my dad was born in Mexico in 1928 and I was born in Texas in 1976. I would also like to mention that my father passed away without ever opting for SC. The reason I mention this is because some consulates might want to trip you up and say that this is necessary in order to establish some sort of generational continuity in citizenship. This is not the case.

If your application is denied for any reason it must be done so in writing so that you can appeal to the DGRN (Dirección General de los Registros y del Notariado) which is the entity that regulates these matters.

The actual law that I opted for Spanish Citizenship through was the DISPOSICIÓN ADICIONAL SÉPTIMA DE LA LEY 52/2007, through anexo 1. This law is commonly known as La Ley de Memoria Historica (LMH).

I should have applied at the Spanish consulate in Houston as it is the one in my consular demarcation but I opted for applying at the consulate in Mexico city because I heard that personel there was better trained, friendlier and had a fair knowledge of how this law actually worked in regards to the acquisition of SC for GC. I found out this information through a forum named Hijos y Nietos de Españoles which I have participated in since 2007. It ended up being a bit longer, but it worked out great in the end.

I used no profesional legal advice.

The passport costs $26 USD.

Birth certificates must be certified copies, that's what I mean by certified.

"Officially translated" means that if they're American birth certificates, than they must be transalted from English to Spanis by an official translator (ask your nearest consulate to refer you to one that they will accaept).

"Apostilled" means that your birth certificate and your parent's must have an Apostille. An Apostille is a form of certification set out in the 1961 Hague Convention, to which the United States became a subscriber in 1981. It is a form of numbered fields, which allows the data to be understood by the receiving country regardless of the official language of the issuing country. This can usually be requested at the office of your state's Secretary of State.

The U.S. does allow dual nationality check it out:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

If you opt for SC through the LMH you will not be recquired to renounce your U.S. citizenship and also once you do have SC it will be de origen so you won't ever lose it regardless if you live in the U.S. and not in Spain. Only way to lose it is by renouncing it.

So what you'll need to start your application file, so to speak, is your apostilled certified birth certificate with official translation and your parents. Remember that your parent's birth certificate must state that at least one of their parents was a SN; that's the crux of this whole matter. That's your claim. If not, then see anexo 2 if applicable.

You will obviously also need you GP's birthcertificate. That can be requested by phone, fax or mail at registro civil where they were born. You will need their full names, DOB, parents' names, and possibly grandparents' names.

Check out this FAQs it is invaluable: http://hyne.com.ar/legales/
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Hilda



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 29
Location: Miami, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola Art, la informacion que ofrece Salvador es correcta. Aunque la ley se hace llamar de Memoria Historica, tienen derecho igualmente los nietos de emigrantes, no importa al pais que hayan emigrado, llegados antes de la guerra civil espanola. Al menos conozco casos concretos aqui en Miami y en Puerto Rico, donde el porcentaje de exiliados espanoles debe ser muy pequeno, que han obtenido la nacionalidad espanola, siempre que llenen los requerimientos exigidos en cuanto a documentacion, etc.

Lo mas importante es poder probar que el abuelo tenia ciudadania espanola cuando nacio su hijo (en este caso el padre del solicitante) esto es que en la inscripcion de nacimiento haga constar: nacionalidad del padre "espanola" y que el nieto a su vez pueda probar la linea de sucesion (por eso hay tantas personas buscando documentos de finales del 1800 y principios de 1900) Esto es lo fundamental que debe quedar claro, despues pueden pedir que los documentos sean legalizados, apostillados, etc. una vez que haya sido presentada la solicitud en el Consulado espanol correspondiente.

Es importantisimo tener en cuenta que la ley tiene una duracion de 2 anos, 2009 y 2010, con posibilidad de extension por un ano mas. Aqui hay que pedir cita por internet en la pagina del Consulado espanol en Miami para la presentacion de documentos, y van por el 2010 desde hace meses, o sea que se puede pedir y empezar a preparar la documentacion, no esperar a tenerlo todo pues la prorroga no esta garantizada.

Suerte a los interesados!!!

----------------------------
trans. Art

Hello Art, The information Salvador provided is correct. Although the law goes by the name of "Law of Historical Memory," the grandchildren of immigrants are also entitled, no matter which country they came to as emigrants, and no matter if they arrived before the Spanish Civil War. At least I know of specific instances here in Miami and Puerto Rico, where the percentage of Spanish exiles should be very small, in which people have obtained Spanish nationality, provided they fulfill the requirements demanded in terms of documentation, etc.

The most important thing is to prove that the grandparent had Spanish citizenship when their son or daughter was born (in this case the applicant's parent). This means that the birth certificate should state that the nationality of the father is "Spanish." [Art: there are other ways to prove proper nationality.] Then the grandson in turn must prove the line of succession (which is why so many people are looking for documents of the late 1800s and early 1900s). This is the gist, which should be shown clearly, then the applicant may request that the documents be authenticated, annotated, and so on, once the application has been filed in the corresponding Spanish consulate. [Art: I think Hilda is suggesting that you verify with the consulate that your documentation is adequate before going to the trouble of getting them authenticated.]

It is very important to note that the law has a duration of 2 years, 2009 and 2010, with a possible extension for another year. Here in Miami we must make an appointment via internet at the Spanish Consulate in Miami for the submission of documents, and the waiting list already extends for months into 2010, meaning that you can ask now and begin preparing the documentation. Don't wait to have everything ready because the possibility of an extension is not guaranteed.

Good luck to those who are interested in gaining citizenship!
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Charolette



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 115
Location: Albany Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible to apply to the Spanish Consulate by mail, or does it need to be done in person?
I am not sure that I will be able to get all the documents but I am trying. I have a certified copy of my Grandmothers birth record from Spain, but I have not been able to find my Grandfathers. He was born in Manzaneda so I have written to the Civil Registry in Luanco twice but have not received an answer. I'm still trying.
Also, I'm not sure if my mothers birth record shows where my grandparents were from. I have sent for a copy but it will be awhile before I get it.
Charolette
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MariaA



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salvador ha dado en gran detalle una explicación muy completa de las disposiciones de la Ley de la Memoria Histórica. Al igual que él yo obtuve mucha información al respecto en el foro de Hijos y nietos de españoles. Como el bien explica, lo crucial es, aparte de los certificados de nacimientos, etc, es tener prueba que el abuelo español conservaba su ciudadanía española al momento de nacer su hijo/ hija.

Yo acabo de aplicar por Anexo 1, como nieta de español que aun conservaba su ciudadanía al momento de nacer mi madre . Tanto mi madre como yo nacimos en Cuba. Tuve la suerte de que mi madre tiene el original de la carta de ciudadanía cubana de mi abuelo. Esta le fue otorgada años despues del nacimineto de mi madre, probando asi que ella era epañola de origen. Fue una gran suerte tener este documento porque hoy en día es practicamente imposible obtener de Cuba este tipo de documento. Los certificados de nacimiento sí se pueden obtener.

Y como bien dijo Salvador, no es necesario que la hija/hijo del español recupere su ciudadanía española para que el nieto/nieta pueda presentarse por Anexo 1. Mi madre, por razones personales, no tiene interés de hacerlo y esto no fue obstáculo para que nuestra aplicación fuera aceptada.

----------------------

Salvador has given in great detail a very good and complete explanation of the LMH. Just like him, I obtained a lot of information via the forum of Children and grandchildren of spaniards. As he very well explains, the crucial thing to obtain, in addition to the various birth certicants, is proof that the Spanish grandfather was still a Spanish citizen(SC) at the time his son/daughter was born.

I just applied for Spanish citizenship under Anexo 1, as grandaughter of a Spaniard which was still a SC at the time of my mother's birth. My mother and I were born in Cuba. I was lucky that my mother had my grandfather's original Cuban citizenship certificate. This was granted to him years after my mother's birth, thus proving she was Spanish at birth. It was very fortunate to have this documents since nowadays it is almost impossible to obtain this type of documentation from Cuba . It is still possible to obtain birth certificates.

And as Salvador well said, it is not necessary for the daughter/son of the Spanish national to recuperate his/her SC so that the grandchild is allowed to apply through Anexo 1. Due to personal reasons my mother has no desire to do this and it did not create problems for my application.
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MariaA



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charolette wrote:
Is it possible to apply to the Spanish Consulate by mail, or does it need to be done in person?
I am not sure that I will be able to get all the documents but I am trying. I have a certified copy of my Grandmothers birth record from Spain, but I have not been able to find my Grandfathers. He was born in Manzaneda so I have written to the Civil Registry in Luanco twice but have not received an answer. I'm still trying.
Also, I'm not sure if my mothers birth record shows where my grandparents were from. I have sent for a copy but it will be awhile before I get it.
Charolette


Charolette, As far as I know you have to present yourself with the documents at the Spanish Consulate(at least that was my experience and the experience of everybody else that I have read about). They will also ask to see your ID and proof of residence (I used passport and driver's license).


I obtained my grandfather's BC going through the internet page of the Ministerio de Justicia de España www.mjusticia.es . It took over 2 months because the request first goes to Madrid and then Madrid sent it to the appropriate Registro Civil. I had to follow up with a phone call to get it . The Registro Civil had sent it to Madrid and Madrid was just sitting on it! Since you requested it directly from the Registro Civil it might be a good idea for you to call them(if you speak Spanish) and see what is the holdup.

Where is your mom from?
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for reporting your experience, María. Have you been approved yet? You make it sound pretty painless, which is encouraging. If you have other advice, please share it.

I'm still waiting to see what the US Government has in regard to my grandfather's obtaining citizenship.

Dealing with the official record-keepers is often glacial, so I recommend than people get moving immediately if they're interested in obtaining citizenship.

-------------------------------

Gracias por informarnos de tu experiencia, María. ¿Ya has sido aprobado? Parece poca dolorosa, lo cual me anima. Si tienes otros consejos, por favor compártelos.

Todavía estoy esperando para ver los datos que el gobierno estadounidense tiene en respecta a la ciudadanía de mi abuelo.

Tratar con los guardadatos oficiales (registros civiles) tiende a ser glacial (lento), por lo que recomiendo que todos que quieren obtener la ciudadanía actúen inmediatamente.
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MariaA



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hola Art,

The actual process of presenting the papers at the Consulate was indeed "painless" but all that we had to go through to get the papers wasn't and it was costly. My situation was complicated by the fact that my birth certificate and my moms had to be obtained from the Cuba authorities. For those of us living outside Cuba, they make us pay through the nose! I just submitted the application a couple of weeks ago. They told me it will take around 9 months since my file has to travel to Cuba so I can be inscribed in the Spanish Consulate there. A lot of bureaucracy!

I am surprised that you are encountering delays obtaining your documents in the US. Is this the document from the INS that confirms either than your grandfather didn't become a US citizen or if he did , confirms the date?

----------

El proceso en sí de presentar los papeles en el consulado no fue doloroso, pero lo que tuvimos que pasar para conseguirlos sí lo fue y también fue costoso. Para aquellos de nosotros que vivimos fuera de Cuba nos cobran un ojo de la cara por los documentos! Yo acabo de presentar la solicitud hace un par de semanas . Me dijeron que tomaría cerca de 9 meses ya que mi expediente tiene que ir a Cuba para ser inscrita en el Consulado español allí. Mucha burocracia!

Me sorprende oir que te estén haciendo esperar por tus documentos en EU. Este documento es el que pides a Inmigración y confirma o que tu abuelo no se hizo ciudadano americano o que si se hizo te da la fecha?
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the current delay is with the INS to see what records they have on my grandparents. Then I'll have to apply again to receive copies of any of those documents.

I may have to do it through my grandmother because my grandfather's records show different names. I think the person who recorded his birth must not have been very familiar with the family. I'm also trying to get a death certificate fixed in California because my uncle listed the wrong name for his mother. It could easily be said that my family didn't know much about their recent ancestors!

Do you think I'll have trouble making a claim via my grandmother?

------------------------------

Sí, el retraso actual es esperando para el INS para ver lo que hay en los registros sobre mis abuelos. Entonces tendré que solicitar de nuevo las copias de cualquiera de esos documentos.

Es posible que tenga que hacerlo a través de mi abuela, porque los documentos para mi abuelo muestran nombres diferentes. Creo que la persona que registró su nacimiento debe haber sido poco familiarizado con la familia. También estoy tratando de cambiar su certificado de defunción en California porque mi tío que puso un nombre equivocado para la madre. Vaya. ¡Sería fácil decir que mi familia no sabía mucho acerca de sus antepasados recientes!

¿Crees que voy a tener problemas en pedir nacionalidad a través de mi abuela?
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MariaA



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Art,

Unfortunately, until (I believe) 1978 the Spanish citizenhip was passed by the male so it has to be through your grandfather. Are the differences in the names very big? I have read on the HYNE forum of people having that kind of problem but I also know that somehow they have fixed it.

The only documents that you will need of your grandfather is his birth certificate and whatever document you get from the INS stating when he got his citizenship. Will his name appear diiferent from his brth certificate in your mother's/father's BC?
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Charolette



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 115
Location: Albany Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Mothers birth certificate shows her father as Joseph instead of Jose.
I have my grandmothers birth certificate and their marriage certificate, both from Aviles. I also have a copy of my grandfathers citizenship papers
and certified copies of both my grandparents death records. The only place I see him listed as Joseph is on my mothers birth certificate.
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't realize that this was under the 1978 law. That would explain some of my confusion. I was under the impression that the maternal line had been included in more recent law.

My grandfather's birth certificate says José Antonio. His marriage certificate says Emilio. And his baptism certificate says Emilio José Antonio. On my mother's birth certificate, I think it says Emilio. It's clear from the names of the parents and the dates that it's all the same person.

----------------------------------

No me di cuenta de que se encontra bajo la ley de 1978. Eso explicaría alguna de la confusión que tuve. Tenía la impresión de que la línea materna había sido incluido en la legislación más reciente. Tal vez no.

El certificado de nacimiento de mi abuelo dice José Antonio. Su certificado de matrimonio, dice Emilio. Y su certificado de bautismo dice Emilio José Antonio. El certificado de nacimiento de mi madre, creo, dice Emilio. Es claro dando los nombres de los padres y las fechas que es la misma persona.
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MariaA



Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art,

Unfortunately the LMH does not allow to apply through grandmother . There are a lot of people affected and are protesting this but I haven't heard anything that the Spain goven't is considering changing the requirements.

Regarding the diff in names...I read a case of a woman whose grandfather had a different first name in BC than in his US citizen papers. She obtained also some sort of document from the INS that officially acknowledged that the person in the BC was the same as the person in the US citizenship documents. It might be a bit tricky if his name appears as "Emilio" in your mother's BC, would be better if it said "Jose Antonio" , but as you say, from the other info in the documents it shouldn't be a stretch to establish it is the same person. Good luck with that!
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