World Cup 2010

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Barbara Alonso Novellino
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World Cup 2010

Post by Barbara Alonso Novellino »

Viva Espana!

If the United States couldn't win, then I am very happy that Spain has gotten to the end. Hopefully they will win the final match.

I know my Dad Julius Garcia Alonso, a member of the Soccer Hall of Fame, is smiling down...Soccer was part of his life for most of his life.

Barbara Alonso Novellino
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Post by Barbara Alonso Novellino »

VIVA ESPANA...

Won the World Cup...Congratulations.

Daddy you are smiling down!

Barbara
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Marta Elena Díaz García
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CONGRATULATIONS

Post by Marta Elena Díaz García »

VIVA ESPAÑA

Thanks, Barbara.
The spanish team really deserved more than the world cup because of its fair play all along the championship.:D

The Netherlands team made a foul play:evil:, kicking the spanish players all time :twisted:.

The english referee was not unbiased :twisted: as many fouls made by the netherlanders were overlooked.... :evil:

Finally, our team and us had the reward: WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D

It was surprising to see how many spanish flags were fluterring during the days that the championship lasted. Yesterday people went wild when Iniesta (the player's surname) goaled. It was apotheosic!

And it was a surprise for me because many spanish believe that the flag is related with your political tendency. If you put the spanish flag in your window, for example during the festive season in your village, then you are a "facha" (fascist).

You are a facha for those who are supposed to be more democratic, or more liberal and for those that, deep down, don't accept other oppinions as possible but their own.

I don´t understand this misconception. Were the fascist the ones who invented or designed the spanish flag?. I should like to understand it.

When one travel to other countries (U.K., France, Mexico, USA...) one can see the corresponding flag not only in official buildings but also in the gardens of the houses, in the windows, in cups, towels, etc. People is proud of the flag representing their country. Here it is frowned upon for one to hang the flag in the window or to wear something printed with it...very sad.....:(

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Art
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Post by Art »

The flag issue has been discussed briefly on the forum in several threads, but never in much detail. (I'll put some links below.)

It's pretty much the same here in the US. The people who fly the US flag in the US tend to be conservative.

I think the main problem people have is that people on the political right tend to see waving the flag as an action that supports their views.

Also, and I don't know the details, but evidently the background of the current Spanish flag is the same as the flag flown during Franco's time.

Many also mentioned that during the dictatorship, worship of the flag was very important. Similar things occur here in the US and, in fact, all around the world. Sometimes this sort of heightened patriotism goes so far as to suppress individual civil rights, such as free speech.

Not always, but often, flag waving is a symptom of nationalism. At least in Spain, one aspect of nationalism has been the suppression of regional identities, so I can understand how many Asturians would see problems with excessive worship of the flag.

I think the basic problem, what makes many uncomfortable, is that flag waving and other symbolic political acts are often associated with uncritical support of a government. It bothers me when I hear people emphatically support a politician or a policy but they can't explain why they support them. What kind of support is that? It's largely emotional! And emotions don't make for good decisions.

In the US this kind of patriotism was used to support the Vietnam War and Iraq Wars, and certainly many other wars.

Worse, too often these symbolic actions are part of a "bandwagon" or "steamroller" trampling other voices and perspectives ("You can't say that! That's unpatriotic!"). Government needs our critique to be its best!

Of course, we're talking about sports here, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying a great competitive match. I am awestruck by great sports ability. But the emotionalism that we display when we support "our" team is very similar to that nationalism. It makes me uncomfortable.

http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... 9152#19152 (last paragraph of Ayandés' message)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =2815#2815 (first paragraph of Miguel Angel's)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =3880#3880 (an exchange in Corsino and Terechu's messages)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... 2615#22615 (starting with Terechu's message, but continuing for at least two pages)

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El tema de la bandera ha sido discutido brevemente en el foro en varios hilos, pero nunca con mucho detalle. (Pongo enlaces abajo.)

Es casi lo mismo aquí en los EE.UU. La gente que muestra la bandera estadounidense en los EE.UU. tienden a ser conservadores.

Creo que para mucha gente el problema principal es que la gente de la política derecha tienden a ver ondear la bandera como una acción que ayude a sus puntos de vista.

También, y no sé los detalles, pero evidentemente el fondo de la bandera española actual es el mismo de la bandera española durante la época de Franco.

Muchas mencionaron también que durante la dictadura, el culto de la bandera era muy importante. Cosas similares ocurren aquí en los EE.UU. y, de hecho, en todo el mundo. A veces este tipo de patriotismo se lleva hasta suprimir los derechos civiles individuales, tales como la libertad de expresión.

No siempre, pero muchas veces, ondear la bandera es un síntoma del nacionalismo. Al menos en España, un aspecto del nacionalismo ha sido la supresión de las identidades regionales, y por eso entiendo como a muchos asturianos no les gusta el culto excesivo de la bandera.

Creo que el problema de base, lo que para mucha gente es desconcertante, es que ondear de la bandera y otros actos políticos simbólicos se asocian a menudo con el apoyo incondicional de un gobierno. Me molesta cuando oigo a gente apoyando totalmente a una política o un político, pero no pueden explicar por qué los apoyan. ¿Qué tipo de apoyo es? ¡Pues, es en gran parte emocional! Y las emociones no hacen decisiones bien cimentadas.

En los EE.UU. este tipo de patriotismo se utilizó para apoyar la guerra de Vietnam y la Guerra de Irak, y seguramente muchas otras guerras.

Peor aún, con demasiada frecuencia estas acciones simbólicas son parte de la "política tren" o política de "aplanadora" que pisotea a otras voces y perspectivas ("No puedes decir eso! Eso es antipatriótico!"). ¡El gobierno necesita nuestra crítica para ser a la mejor!

Por supuesto, estamos hablando de deportes, y no hay nada de malo en disfrutar un partido de competición fantástico. Admiro mucho la capacidad de los grandes deportistas. Pero la emotividad que mostramos cuando apoyamos a "nuestro" equipo es muy similar a la del nacionalismo. Esto me preocupa.

http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19152 # 19152 (último párrafo del mensaje Ayandés)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2815 # 2815 (primer párrafo de Miguel Ángel)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3880 # 3880 (un intercambio entre Corsino y Terechu)
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2615 # 22615 (empezando por el mensaje de Terechu, pero continuando por al menos dos páginas)
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Marta Elena Díaz García
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La bandera

Post by Marta Elena Díaz García »

Hi Art,

Yes, Art, you are right. Sometimes symbols can be assumed by a political trend. But the flag is the flag, is the symbol that represents the country.


Of course, the background of the current flag is the same as that of the Franco's time. The flag was not invented by Franco or his supporters; it goes back to the XVIII century. The only difference between the current and the Franco's time flags is the coat of arms. The current is the royal coat of arms.

It is not nonsense that each time we have a new type of goverment, the flag has to change also.
I think the basic problem, what makes many uncomfortable, is that flag waving and other symbolic political acts are often associated with uncritical support of a government.It bothers me when I hear people emphatically support a politician or a policy but they can't explain why they support them. What kind of support is that? It's largely emotional! And emotions don't make for good decisions.
Yes, I do agree with you. For this reason, I believe that those who hate the spanish flag (the accepted by the Spanish Constitution) but are found of others are those type of emotional people. I am referring not to the community flags (such as the asturian one, which I found wonderful) but to others not included in the Spanish Constitution.

Excess of nationalism is not good, even for regional identities. If goes to such a point to ask for independence, as it may happens in some communities, they are doing the same they criticize and are making the "bandwagon" politics you talked about.

In this link, some data about the history of the spanish flag:

http://www.ejercito.mde.es/Unidades/es/ ... ndera.html

Once I attended a conference about the history of the spanish flag and the speaker said that the selection of the colours was made "in illo tempore" attending to the fact that red and yellow can be seen very easily in the sea (remember the spanish ships, the travel of conquers, the pirates, etc). In fact, orange is the colour that can be better distinguished in the sea (red+yellow = orange).

In one of the links you mentioned, Corsino believed that the colour of the flag are fascist!...You know? That is the lack of knowledge I told about. Where is it documented that the current flag was prepared by fascists? The bitterness, resentment, that some messages exude do not like me. Sorry.


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Art
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Post by Art »

Marta, you're quite right that emotional versus rational thinking is possible on both the left and the right. The problem, at least in the US, is that the right uses these techniques much more. When I study the surveys I receive from the Republican party and those from the Democratic party, the difference is obvious. What do Republican leaders believe about the thinking ability of their supporters?

(I don't like following any party line. I have leftist friends who think I'm conservative and rightist friends who think I'm a flaming liberal.)

I also agree that regional nationalism can be just as negative as the "national nationalism".

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Marta, tienes razón que el pensamiento emocional versus racional es posible tanto en la izquierda como la derecha. El problema, al menos en los EE.UU., es que la derecha utiliza estas técnicas mucho más. Cuando estudio las encuestas que recibo del Partido Republicano y los del Partido Demócrata, la diferencia es obvia. ¿Qué piensan los lideres de los Republicanos sobre la capacidad de pensar de sus partidarios?

(No me gusta seguir cualquier plataforma de cualquier partido. Tengo amigos de la izquierda que piensan que soy conservador y amigos derechistas que piensan que soy un maldito liberal.)

También estoy de acuerdo que el nacionalismo regional puede ser tan negativo como el "nacionalismo nacional".
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Post by Maestro Tomberi »

... Y ahora es cuando yo pongo los puntos sobre las Íes:

1) Por fín España tiene su lugar entre Los Elegidos!! Hemos jugado mejor física y tácticamente... Aunque por otra parte me recuerda mucho a cualquiera de los mundiales que ha conseguido Italia (tanto si os gusta como si no ha sido asi, pues así es como ellos han conseguido 4 campeonatos)

2) Es cierto que Holanda ha pecado de realizar un juego hermético y demasiado férrreo, pero dado el caso de una final hay que dejarla jugar a toda costa. Si ha sucedido así en el partido de clasificación para el Mundial de 1978 contra Yugoslvia, ¿porqué no ahora?

*Es cierto que Holanda tendría que tener 4 jugadores menos (de esta manera y con el reglamento en la mano, España hubiera ganado automáticamente 3-0, pero en contrapartida sería un escándalo de primer nivel mundial), si bien Busquets y Puyol, también con el reglamento en la mano, deberían haber sido expulsados... Total, firmo 4 expulsados por 2 :D.


3) Me trae absolutamente al pairo las facciones políticas que cada uno pueda seguir. Puedo garantizar (porque lo he vivido) que todos nos hemos sentido más españoles que nunca. 32 años *míos* de frustraciones lo avalan. Suma otros 60...

4) Este campeonato (uno de los peores de todos a pesar de todo) ha dado a Tuilla fama universal :D.

Y a pesar de todo...

ASTURIS Y ESPAÑA POR COJONES!! :mrgreen:
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Art
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Post by Art »

Me interesa que el fútbol es un deporte en que hay pocos puntos. Lo hace un deporte muy estresante.

Maestro Tomberi, ¿crees que esta victoria tenga resultados a largo plazo?

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It´s interesting that soccer is a sport which such low scores or points. That make it a very nerve-racking game.

Maestro Tomberi, do you see this victory having any long-term results?
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Maestro Tomberi
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Post by Maestro Tomberi »

Pocos puntos? Supongo que te referirás a marcadores pequeños, pues sé bien que los estadounidenses sois amantes de los grandes marcadores y por eso te llama tanto la atención :lol:.

Respecto a las consecuencias, creo que sí, el impacto a largo plazo ya está teniendo lugar y además de manera inmediata, pues España siempre fué un país con "pedigree" futbolístico, pero que nunca había llegado a poner la corona mundial por azares del destino u otras calamidades (La tanda de penaltis contra Bélgica en 1986, el penalty no pitado a Luis Enrique en USA 94, La cantada de Zubizarreta en Francia 98, el fuera de juego inexistente en Corea 2002...), y ya por el hecho de haber eliminado esa leyenda negra que nos rodeó siempre el equipo en sí es mucho más fuerte. A esto hay que añadir por fin un estilo de juego propio y definido.

Además hay una cosa más: En los mundiales o acontecimientos grandes hay dos clases de equipos; los que son campeones del mundo y los que no lo son.

Eso en cuanto al aspecto futbolístico. En la parte "extra" hay que decir que supondría un estímulo extra para el turismo y venta de marcas, aunque este efecto no sería para nada permanente, si no una nota atractiva más.

Sin embargo también está el tema de la identidad nacional: El fútbol la refuerza mucho... de verdad. Lo que jamás han logrado los políticos el fútbol lo ha conseguido. Jamás he visto a tanta gente junta celebrando de tal manera un acontecimiento, y no exageraría al decir que quizás más gente que incluso en la entrada en la "democracia" ;)


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Few points? I guess you mean short scores, since I know you US folks are high-scores lovers and that's why it calls your attention :lol:.

Regarding the consequences, I think yes, long-term impact is taking place already and also in an immediate way, since Spain always was a country with "footballistic" pedigree, altough having never wore the world crown because randoms of fate or other calamities (The penalty shoot-out against Belgium in 1986, the penalty not whistled in USA 94, Zubizarreta's flop in France 98, the inexisting off-side in Corea 2002...), and now because the fact of having eliminated the black legend that lways surrounded us the team itself is much stronger. Add to this having at last a playstyle well defined and of our very own.

There's also one more thing: In World Cups or great events there are two kinds of teams: Those teams who are World Champions and those who are not.

That regarding the footballistic terms. In the "extra" side it has to e said it would suppose an extra pep for tourism and trademark sales, altough this effect wouldn't be permanent at all, but one more attractive note.

There is also the topic of the national identity: Football strenghtens it up a hell lot... really. What politicians never managed to do yet, football did. I haven't ever seen so many people together celebrating such a way an event, and I wouldn't exaggerate by saying that perhaps more people than even when the entrance into "democracy" occured ;)
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Art
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Post by Art »

Well, I suppose a little tribal identity might be a good thing in an era of separatism!

The importance of soccer for a nation is probably hard for many from the US to understand because our sports teams tend to be viewed as local, except perhaps during the Olympics.

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¡Pues, supongo que un poco de identidad tribal podría ser una buena cosa en una época del separatismo!

La importancia del fútbol para una nación probablemente sea difícil a entender para muca gente de los EE.UU, porque nuestros equipos deportivos tienden a ser apoyado localemente, excepto quizás durante los Juegos Olímpicos.
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Post by Maestro Tomberi »

Yo me atrevería a decir que la mayor importancia que le hemos dado al fútbol en la mayor parte de nuestras generaciones ha sido a través de los clubs, puesto que a través de ellos es donde muchos integrantes de diferentes regiones ven su orgullo (Aquí, un servidor como ejemplo), de ahí que surjan rivalidades regionales tales como Barcelona - Espanyol, Real Madrid - Atlético de Madrid , Betis - Sevilla, Celta de Vigo - Deportivo de La Coruña, Levante - Hércules, Ath. Bilbao - Real Sociedad, Fachadolid - Salamanca, y muchas otras... **

De hecho, el Súper Clásico [Barça - Madrid] alcanza dimensiones mundiales, más aún que una SuperBowl.

** Y no. No pongo Sporting - Oviedo... Ahí no puede haber hoy en día rivalidad :lol:


Cabe destacar que en toda Europa pasa más de lo mismo... quizá por ello hay multitud de fuertes rivalidades internacionales (P.e.: Real Madrid - Bayern)
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