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Abuelo born in Cuba: Can I obtain Spanish citizenship?
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Abuelo born in Cuba: Can I obtain Spanish citizenship? Reply with quote

My grandfather was born in Cuba, however he was a full blooded Spaniard through both of his parents who were Spaniards (de origen). I have found documentation that says that his nationality/citizenship was Spanish as well. Is there any way that I can go about obtaining Spanish citizenship? I know my father would easily be able to, but can I or is my affiliation too far removed?

Additional information: As I was born in a country that recognizes dual-citizenship with Spain, Argentina, and vice-versa would it be better for me to go about obtaining my Spanish citizenship that way?

muchas gracias y un gran abrazo
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome, PFerrans!

That's a good question. If I remember correctly, the answer is no. We're not experts and especially not in that particular situation.

This thread (among others) has some information:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=134

But your case is different from most of ours, so I'd check this site's forum:
http://exiliados.org/foro/
and possibly this section on Cuba:
http://exiliados.org/foro/index.php?board=44.0
It seemed to me that much of the information there was solid, but I should also say that I was unable to register or get any assistance from that site. No one answered my emails. Don't wait on them for any help! You don't have a lot of time left and the process is slow.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I thought, the most frustrating part is that my great grandfather has a Spanish noble title--given to him by Alfonso XII for promoting Spain during the Spanish-American War as well as the Guerras Carlistas, which makes us direct descendants of Spanish nobility.

Do you think it would be better for me to just go through my natural Argentine citizenship, since i was born there?
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it matters where you do it, as long as you're a nieto or hijo of a Spanish citizen. (Although some consulates may be more helpful than others.)

In reading your message again, I see this:
pferrans wrote:
I have found documentation that says that his nationality/citizenship was Spanish as well.

I think that is worth exploring. It's quite possible that your grandfather was enrolled for citizenship by your great-grandfather, even though your grandfather was born in Cuba. (I think the Registro Civil of each concejo has documents about who was enrolled, but I'm not sure about that.) If your grandfather was enrolled, then you might be okay.

I can't remember whether it matters where the grandfather was born. I know that it doesn't matter where the father or mother was born, as long as they were eligible to be Spanish.

Then the question would become whether your grandfather still had his Spanish nationality when your father was born. If so, that would make your father eligible for nationality and you should be able to get nationality as a nieto.

I'm fairly confident in this line of reasoning, but may be wrong. I'm not an expert and I've been terribly wrong on nationality questions before.

The thing to do NOW would be to set up an appointment with the consulate for the area you live in (you have to go to the correct consulate) to show them your documents and see what they say. You'll want to get as many of the documents as possible before that meeting.

If you're sure your grandfather wasn't a Spanish citizen, then but I'd look into whether your father could get it and then you could get it after he became a citizen. But I don't know if they allow that.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am certain that my great-grandfather and great-grandmother were Spanish citizens as they were born in France (as exiled Catalans) and Spain, respectively.

It is such that my grandfather appears on several ship manifests dated in 1938 as "Spanish/Cuban" and maintained the title "Don" from the title of nobility--that of Conde de Rivero-- that my family was given by Alfonso XII for the gran example of "españolismo" that they set wherever they went.

My father actually does consider himself Spanish because he grew up visiting his grandfather (my great-grandfather) and was even the target of bullying for being un "guaje español." Hopefully, I can convince him to apply for LMH since it would be fairly easy for him to obtain Confused
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously doubt that ships manifests will be enough.

I'd begin by requesting official nationality documents either at the Ministry of Justice or the Registro in your great-grandfather's concejo.
http://www2.mjusticia.es/

You'll also need birth certificates for yourself, your father, and your grandfather. Your own will have to have the apostile, probably attached by the state government where you were born.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the ship documents are not enough, but his birth certificate declares his parents as Spaniards...
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that's enough for you. It's good for your father, though. I'd get to work on those documents right away. You'll need all the time you have to get your own citizenship, especially if you have to go through your father getting it. The process is extremely slow once you submit your papers.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think my father can obtain it through origen...although, there is major issue as he has no interest in doing so Sad
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can dig up all of the paper work for him, maybe he'll do it to help you! There's very little cost, except that you do have to go to the consulate several times.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure he has his father's birth certificate, as well as his own, however I would need to find the documentation for my great grandfather and am having a hard time navigating the ministry's website... any tips? thank you!
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think you'll need recent birth certificates with official seals.

I've never used the Ministry's website, but know it's hard to navigate. Here's a possible tip:
Salvador Garcia wrote:
On the right side of the screen under Informacion relacionada you will find the Certificado Nacimiento para efectos de la Ley de Memoria Histórica option (2nd link I'm sending) which will enable potential applicants to order their grandparents or parents Spanish birth certificates.
https://ecertificados.mjusticia.es/eCertificados/CertificadoNacimientoLMH.do
I have family members who have used this link, and have recieved the birth certificates that they requested in approximatley 4 months time.

That link causes Firefox to warn about security problems, but I think it's fine.

Hmm. When was your great-grandfather born? The Registro Civil only goes back so far.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How far back does it go?
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Art
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4476
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on the area, but 1870 or 1871 was the official start of the Registros Civiles, but there may have been an earlier pilot period in some of the larger cities from about 1839 to 1870, as explained here:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19477#19477

I'm not sure, but I think I heard that citizen's compliance with the new law was somewhat lower in the beginning, so it may not be possible to find some people's births, marriages, or deaths because they weren't recorded. Of course, there are many errors in the records, too, so finding records, which makes finding documents harder.
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pferrans



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gracias, Art! Aún, los años que tengo van del 1874 hasta los 1905, así que espero que los tengan en el ministerio. Creo que mi padre, y si no mi madre, me ayudara a buscar la solicitud de parte de sus abuelos españoles ya que sabemos que fueron españoles de origen--nacidos en Oviedo, Canarias, Córdoba, y uno en París pero registrado con la embajada española como español.

un bso y gracias x todo el consejo!
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