Polémica Cultura Astur-Celta/Astur-Celtic Culture Discussio

Asturian cultural identity, Spanish nationality, & return to Asturias: legal, social, & personal aspects.<br>
Identidad cultural asturiana, nacionalidad española, y regreso a Asturias: cuestiones legales, sociales, y personales.

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Bob
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Post by Bob »

In an earlier post, Carlos wrote:
Which is the DNA marker that determines the capitalist civilization? And which is the Catholic cephalic index? And [can we identify] Lutheran blood?


He is clearly being ironic, but some of our readers might be confused by the reference to "Lutheran blood." Among the many human blood types, such as ABO, Rh, Kell Duffy and MN, is indeed a blood type called Lutheran. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Lutheran religion. The name of the family in which the blood antigen was first discovered was Luteran, which was misrecorded as Lutheran, and has remained as such in the literature.

By the way, memebrs whoe are interested in the genetics of any human trait may want to explore http://www3.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=OMIM, which is--unfortunately--available only in English.

Bob Martinez
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Terechu
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Post by Terechu »

Por Dios santo, Mouguías! ¿Dónde comparé yo tus intervenciones con algo nazi? Voy a dejar de participar en estos debates, porque todo lo que digo se interpreta a la tremenda, o como ofensa, mientras que lo decís los demás, por burro que sea, ni se cuestiona.
Estaba dando ejemplos, según tu petición, y por supuesto que los ejemplos más extremos son los de los cerebros rapados, así que los mencioné porque son una realidad.
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For Heaven's sake, Mouguías! Where did I compare your interventions with anything nazi? I'm just going to stop participating in these debates, because everything I say is interpreted in the most negative way, or as a personal offence, while everything the rest of you say, regardless of how rude it is, is never questioned.
I was giving you examples, as per your request, and of course the skinhead examples are the most extreme, so I mentioned them because they are a fact.

Terechu
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Mouguias
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Post by Mouguias »

Bueno, hombre :?:
No me ofeeendo, pero reconoceme que no queda muy bien poner mi intervencion justo al lado de un fulano que habla de la pureza de nuestra cultura e inmediatamente antes de un comentario sobre los skinheads que se adornan con cruces celtas. Vamos, que no veo que tiene eso que ver conmigo.
Hala, aqui no ha pasado nada (por mi parte al menos).

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translated by Art

Whew, friend :?:
I'm not offended, but I have to admit that it didn't look good that my contribution was mentioned right next to some guy who talks about the purity of our culture and immediately before a commentary about skinheads who adorn themselves with celtic crosses. Come on, I don't see how this has anything to do with me.
Hey, nothing [bad] has happened (at least as far as I'm concerned).
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Post by jomaguca »

Terechu,por favor no te enfades ,ya sabemos qué en un foro hay distintas opiniones ,pero por favor no dejes de escribir qué me encanta todo lo qué cuentas y además lo leo detenidamente ,tú sigue así no tienes porqué cambiar en tús opiniones nunca leí ninguna qué ofendiera a nadie y eso es lo importante .saludos :cry:

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translated by Art

Terechu, please don't get mad. We already know that in a forum there will be differing opinions, but please don't stop writing. I love all that you tell us. Moreover, I read it thoroughly. Continue [writing] as you have because you don't have any reason to change your opinions. I've never read anything that offended anyone and that's what's important. Best wishes, :cry:
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Terechu
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Post by Terechu »

Mouguías, de acuerdo, la secuencia o la selección de los ejemplos fue poco afortunada, pero es que no se me ocurrió tan siquiera que alguien pudiera comparar uno con otro. Te aseguro que jamás escribo nada con ánimo de ofender a nadie personalmente, porque no soy así, pero es difícil condensar lo que se piensa en cuatro líneas. Encima, cuando se abrevia demasiado, el riesgo de que alguien lea entre líneas lo que no hay es considerable.
En fin, como tú dices, aquí no ha pasado nada. :D

Jose, gracias por tu mensaje de apoyo. A mí también me gusta leer tus mensajes. Eres una persona muy afable y muy positiva. Un amigo, vamos.

Un abrazo a los dos
Terechu
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Mouguías, granted that the sequence or the choice of the examples given was not very fortunate, but it just never occurred to me that someone might put them on the same level. I can assure that I never write anything meant as a personal offence to anyone, because I'm just not like that, but it is difficult to condense one's thoughts into four lines. In addition, when you become too brief, the risk of someone reading between the lines things that aren't there is considerable.
So, as you say, no hard feelings. :D

Jose, thanks for your support. I like reading your posts, too. You are a very kind and positive person - a friend, in short.

Hugs to both
Terechu
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Alexastur
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Post by Alexastur »

Buenas soy nuevo en el foro y he estado leyendo un poco la discusión sobre este tópico.
La verdad que estar discutiendo a estas alturas sobre si Asturies y su cultura tienes raices celtas o no, me parece fuera de lugar.
Asturies debe su nombre a las tribus preromanas que habitaban enre los rios Navia y Sella llamadas Astures, como sabemos. Pues bien, está archisobradamente probado por estudios arqueologicos, de cultura material, toponimicos, antroponimicos y de todo tipo que tales pueblos tenian un fuerte componente celta en su cultura, lease como un simple ejemplo el nombre de la tribu que habitaba en el castro de la Campa Torres en Xixón, los Cilúrnigos, palabra celta que viene a significar caldereros. Todo eso sin contar la clara celticidad de la mitología asturiana, de sus tradiciones, adornos tradicionales y un largo etc.
Hoy en dia solo aquellos que por alguna razon personal estan en contra del mundillo comercial celta y que asocian el decir que Asturies tiene origenes celtas con pertenecer a ese mundillo se atreverian a negar la raiz cultural celta en Asturies.
Al igual que sería absurdo negar que hubo una romanización en Asturias, también lo es negar que hubo una celtización que es un hecho historico, y punto.
Lo de hacer pruebas de ADN para buscar poblaciones celtas me parece, con perdon, la mayor tonteria que he oido en mucho tiempo, ya que la palabra "celta" es un termino usado para describir a un grupo muy heterogeneo de pueblos que habitaron toda europa, y es un termino CULTURAL no biológico, y se refiere a que todos esos pueblos tenian caracteristicas culturales comunes empezando por lenguajes provenientes del mismo tronco indoeuropeo y una religion mas o menos copartida.
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Post by Carlos »

¡Meca, una definición de lo que es "un celta"! :lol:
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Xicu_Xabel
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Post by Xicu_Xabel »

Hola, me presento primero, soy asturiano de Corvera, cerca de Avilés.
Terechu, ¿porque dices que en las excavaciones de la Campa Torres no se iba a encontrar nada “celta”?, tal y como dice ‘alexastur’ el nombre de la tribu que usaba el castro en cuestión es celta, así como el nombre de la inscripción ‘Medugenos’ también es celta.
En cuanto a la Tène, si que existes elementos adscritos a los periodos I y II de la Tène (principalmente fíbulas). También se nota la influencia celtíbera entre los ástures, o uno de los elementos más significativos y de una relevancia inmensa, aunque son pocos los que se la dan, la diadema de Moñes.
De todas formas lo más interesantes son las inscripciones, que al parecer están casi en el olvido, Hüber en su estudio las clasifico de lengua celta.
Interesante es ver la película de El hombre de Paja, no faltará tiempo para ver como esas tradiciones están más implantadas de lo que parece también en esta zona. ¿Por qué existe ese anticeltismo tan fuerte con los pueblos latinos? Y ¿de donde sale que los alemanes tienen más restos célticos en un pueblo que en toda España?, yo difiero con eso, las tumbas de las cogotas o los enterramientos vetones tienen gran cantidad de material, de hecho se apilan en cajas en los museos porque no saben que hacer con los objetos. Y en inscripciones España anda bastante bien, dado que empezó pronto a usar la escritura íbera.

Hi, I appear first, I‘m Asturian of Corvera, near Avilés. Terechu, because you say that in the excavations of Campa Towers was not going away to find nothing celt elements?, so and as it says ‘alexastur’ the name of the tribe who used the preroman castel at issue is celta, as well as the ‘Medugenos’ name of the inscription also this name is celta. As far as the Tène, if that you exist elements assigned to periods I and II of the Tène (mainly fíbulas). Also the celtíber influence between ástures, or one of the most significant elements and an immense relevance notices, although those are few that occur it, diadema of Moñes. In any case most interesting they are the inscriptions, that apparently are almost in the forgetfulness, Hüber in his study, it classify of language celta. Interesting it is to see the film of the Wicker Man, will not lack time to see as those traditions more are implanted of which it also seems in this zone. Why exists that anticeltismo so hard with the Latin towns? And where he leaves that the Germans have more célticos rest in a town that in all Spain, I differ with that, the tombs of the codrops or the interments vetones have great amount of material, in fact they are piled up in boxes in the museums because they do not know that to do with the objects. And in Spain inscriptions it walks enough good, since it soon began to use the íbera writing.

Ta llueu
P.D.: Sorry, but my ingles is not very good :(
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Art
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Geneticists find Celtic links to Spain and Portugal

Post by Art »

I am posting below a recent article which was forwarded to me by our member, Ana Cris (aka Lula).

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Geneticists find Celtic links to Spain and Portugal
2004-09-09 17:50:01+01
http://www.online.ie/news/viewer.adp?article=3155470

The Irish and Scots may be as closely related to the people of Spain and Portugal as the Celts of central Europe, it emerged today.

Historians have long believed the British Isles were swamped by a massive invasion of Iron Age Celts from central Europe around 500BC.

But geneticists at Dublin's Trinity College now claim the Irish and Scots have as much, if not more, in common with the people of north-western Spain.

Dr Daniel Bradley, genetics lecturer at Trinity College Dublin, said a new study into Celtic origins revealed close affinities with the people of Galicia

"It's well known that there are cultural relations between the areas but now this shows there is much more," Dr Bradley said.

"We think the links are much older than that of the Iron Age because it also shows affinities with the Basque region - which isn't a Celtic region."

"The links point towards other Celtic nations, in particular Scotland, but they also point to Spain," he added.

Historians believed the Celts, originally from the Alpine regions of central Europe invaded the Atlantic islands in a massive migration 2,500 years ago.

But using DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and other parts of Europe geneticists at the university have drawn new parallels.

Dr Bradley said it was possible migrants moved from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland as far back as 6,000 years ago up until 3,000 years ago.

"I don't agree with the idea of a massive Iron Age invasion that took over the Atlantic islands. You can regard the ocean - rather than a barrier - as a communication route," Dr Bradley said.

It is believed archaeologists are also questioning the links between the Celts of eastern France and southern Germany and the people of the British Isles.

The study found people in areas traditionally known as Celtic, such as Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong links with each other and people in Ireland have more in common with Scots than any other nation.

There are also close links between Scotland and Ireland dating back much further than the Plantations of the 1600s when many Scots moved to northern Ireland in search of fertile farming lands, the research showed.

However scientists could not shed any light on whether fair skin, red hair and fiery tempers truly are Celtic traits.

The study headed by Dr Bradley was published in the American Journal of Human Genetics.
Last edited by Art on Tue May 10, 2005 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Art
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Post by Art »

The article above suggests to me how Asturias, Cantabria, and Galicia can be "Celtic" in terms of what we call "Celtic culture", but not in terms of "Celtic blood." I think Mouguais, Terechu, and Berodia may all have been suggesting this, although I'm not sure of that.

If I read the article correctly, the idea is that the people of the Atlantic Rim (or Celtic Arc) may not be genetically Celtic but may be a people who have existed in this region for many thousands of years, perhaps as far back as the Epipaleolithic era or even the last Ice Age.

So, isn't it possible that we share genetic characteristics with the peoples of the "Celtic Arc" without being genetically "Celtic", but also that the culture is "Celtic," as a result of a more recent "Celtic invasion"?

By the way, I'm not arguing for this thesis, I'm just trying to understand it and see what everyone else's reaction is.

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El artículo encima me sugiere como Asturias, Cantabria, y Galicia puede ser "celta" desde le punto de vista de lo que llamamos "la cultura celta", pero no sea "celta" en cuanto a "la sangre celta." Pienso que Mouguais, Terechu, y Berodia han sugerido esto, aunque no estoy seguro.

Si leí el artículo correctamente, la idea es que es posible que la gente del Borde del Atlántico (o el Arco Celta) no sea genéticamente celta, pero sí pueda ser una gente que haya existido en esta región durante unos muchos miles de años, quizás tan lejana como la era Epipaleolithic o hasta la última Época Glacial.

Pues, ¿no es posible que compartamos características genéticas con los pueblos del "Arco Celta" sin ser genéticamente "celtas", pero también que la cultura sea "celta", como consecuencia de un "invasión celta" más reciente?

A propósito, no abogo por esta tesis, solamente trato de entenderlo y quiero oir las reacciones vuestras.
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Post by Mouguias »

Yeah, Art, I guess I agree with you. In brief
-One thing is genetic ancestry, which apparently has remained quite the same all over the Atlantic rim, for the last thousands of years
-A different thing is culture, and it happens most of the time that a certain people, while changing its culture, keeps its ancestry untouched. Apparently, that is what happened here: we took many Celtic elements in our culture, without experiencing any massive invasion or migration from the Celtic homeland, if we consider this one to be in Central Europe, somewhere between Eastern France and Austria.
After "Celtization" we were "Romanized", then "Christianized"...but the bloodline hardly changed all along.
As a result, today, I think it is not difficult to track many common cultural traits in all the countries from the Atlantic rim...often older than the Roman empire.
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Art
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Post by Art »

Wow, you've said that so clearly!

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¡Vaya, has dicho tan claramente!
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Terechu
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Post by Terechu »

[quote="Xicu_Xabel"]Hola, me presento primero, soy asturiano de Corvera, cerca de Avilés.
Terechu, ¿porque dices que en las excavaciones de la Campa Torres no se iba a encontrar nada “celta”?, tal y como dice ‘alexastur’ el nombre de la tribu que usaba el castro en cuestión es celta, así como el nombre de la inscripción ‘Medugenos’ también es celta....

Hola Xicu,
No lo digo yo, lo dice la que dirigió las excavaciones en su día, la catedrática Carmen Fdez. Ochoa, que es la "number one" en la materia y lo dicen las pruebas de ADN que se están llevando a cabo en todo el Arco Atlántico. No hubo celtas, ni aquí ni en Irlanda, ni en Escocia. La lengua no significa nada, es una herramienta que se aprende por conveniencia - la que sea - comercial, militar, administrativa, etc. Creo que ya mencioné el caso de Rumanía, que sólo estuvo 100 años bajo dominio romano y sin embargo hablan una lengua romance, a pesar de ser medio eslavos y medio turcos - o lo que sean. Los vizcaínos, que nunca jamás en su vida hablaron euskera (ni siquiera deben de ser vascos), lo están aprendiendo todos en las ikastolas y con eso en sólo dos generaciones pueden engañar a cualquiera. Y qué me dices de los de Guinea Ecuatorial o de los saharauis? Les hace españoles hablar español?

Aquí hay mucho más de lo que parece y tenemos que estar abiertos a aceptar otra realidad.

Saludos
Terechu

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I'm not saying it, it's prof. Carmen F. Ochoa, the one who lead the excavations in its day and the number one expert in this matter, who says it and it's the DNA tests being conducted along the Atlantic Rim. There were no Celts, neither here, nor in Ireland, nor in Scotland. The language doesn't mean anything, it's a tool that is acquired for the sake of convenience - be it commercial, military or administrative. I believe I already mentioned the case of Romania, which was part of the Roman Empire for only 100 years and yet despite being half Slavs and half Turks - or whatever - they still speak a Romance language. The Biscaynes, who neverhave spoken Basque in all their lives (they're probably not even Basques at all) are all learning it now in their Basque Schools and within two generations they'll be able to fool anyone.
And what about the people of Aequatorial Guinea and the West Sahara? Does their Spanish make them Spaniards?

There's much more to this than meets the eye and we must be open to accept a new reality.

Cheers
Terechu
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Mouguias
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Post by Mouguias »

El de Guinea Ecuatorial es un ejemplo perfecto, Terechu, porque el proceso fue practicamente identico en la Europa prehistorica y en el Africa negra de la era colonial. El nivel de desarrollo de celtas y germanos, cuando llego Roma, es comparable al de los pueblos que se encontraron las potencias europeas en Guinea Ecuatorial y otros paises de la zona. Tambien fue muy semejante el proceso de colonizacion y aculturacion que siguio. Ahora llega la pregunta definitiva: ¿Que cuenta mas, la cultura o la raza? Imaginemos un hombre de Senegal, que viste camisa y pantalon, escribe usando el alfabeto latino, habla frances y sigue la religion cristiana. Por muy negro que sea, ¿No lo encuadraremos en el universo cultural frances antes que en el africano? Igualmente, ¿No diriamos que un ciudadano de Gijon, en el siglo V, seria mas romano que astur? Y analogamente, un astur celtizado del siglo I o II A.C, ¿No sera tan celta como un indigena de la Panonia?
Creo que cuenta mas la cultura que la raza, francamente. Considero que tengo mas en comun, mucho mas, con un hungaro de mi edad, que con un antepasado mio de hace dos mil anos.
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Post by Xicu_Xabel »

Bueno por partes. Las pruebas arqueológicas realmente no son muy afortunadas en restos fósiles y no conozco ninguna comparativa entre poblaciones actuales y restos fósiles.
En cuanto al sustrato material es sorprendente lo que se está encontrando en la actualidad, contra más excavan en los periodos pre-romanos más materiales englobados dentro de la cultura celta tenemos”. Nuestro gran problema radica en la propia universidad de historia de Oviedo, que es anti-celtista. De todas formas fácilmente se puede ojear algún trabajo de materiales como el castro de Cellagu, que a causa de la cantera tubo que hacerse un estudio rápido. Fíjate en los materiales encontrados y la catalogación que estos reciben, es bastante interesante.
En cuanto a las pruebas comparativas de población, hay algo que no entiendo ¿existe un gen de lo celta?.

Ta llueu

Good for parts. The archaeological tests are not really very fortunate in fossil remains and I don't know any comparative one between current populations and fossil remains.
As for the material it is surprising what is being at the present time, against more they dig in the most material pre-Roman periods included inside the Celtic culture we have". Our great problem resides in the own university of history of Oviedo that is anti-celtic. In all ways you can eye some work of materials easily as the I castrate of Cellagu that because of the quarry tube that to be made a quick study. Notice the opposing materials and the cataloguing that these they receive, it is quite interesting.
As for population's comparative tests, is there something that I don't understand a gene of the Celtic thing it exists?.
bye
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