Elecciones presidenciales -- 2008 Presidential elections

[Xose]

Regarding President Bush bashing: Hindsight is always 20/20...

What about those of us who had it 100% correct in "foresight"? All the dire predictions I made about a Bush presidency have come to pass...in spades. Worst. President. Ever.

[Xose]

I hope he can keep us safe as we have been.
[Agreed, although our relative safety has little to do with Bush's warmongering and more to do with the fact that there is no credible domestic terror threat]

I hope he won't take us out if Iraq too soon. Because due to the surge we WON
[If by "WON," you mean lost close to 5,000 troops and killed millions of innocent Iraqis for nothing, then, yeah, I guess, we won. ]

I hope he doesn't scale down our Military.
[Maybe he will build it back up and quit outsourcing it to Blackwater mercenaries, like Bush has done?]

I hope he still supports Israel who are in a very dangerous place.
[Of course he will support Israel. To suggest otherwise is naive.]

I hope he doesn't associate with those who are so very questionable. [Don't worry, I don't think he'll have too much to do with Ted Stevens, Dick Cheney, or GWB.]

I hope he doesn't go too far to the left, but stays somewhere in the middle.
[The country--especially in regard to healthcare--could use a good deal of "left"]

I hope he listens to the Republicans and Moderates in the Senate and House and is reasonable.
[I hope the Dems in Congress, in conjunction with Obama's pen, can reverse all the lame-brained Republican policies of the last 8 years and save this great country from their greed and corruption.]

I hope he knows how to handle the economic condition we find ourselves in.
[We don't "find ourselves" in this mess. This mess was CREATED by the failed policies of the Bush administration.]

I hope if our enemies come after us...he will act to protect us.
[No, Barbara, he's just going to say, "woe is me, come in and kill us all, please." How can you even repeat this tripe? You're smarter than that, certainly.]

I'll add a couple more:

I hope he finds and kills Bin Laden, whom Bush and the ineffective Rebublican regime has left to chill in his cave with no repercussions of any kind for the atrocities of 9/11.

I hope he restores the right to habeas corpus, which was stripped from Americans under the Bush regime.

I hope he reverses course on the wholesale destruction of the Federal Government and its ability to protect our citizens from corporate greed. Under Bush, big business has had a free ride over any and all regulations. How has that worked out?

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

You know Xose some things never change. All during this campaign I gave no opinion because of the Liberal members of this Form...I knew it would all end up in a fiasco as it did in 2004.

Housing Problems...Does the names Barney Franks and Chris Dowd strike a bell????

Associates with: Ayers, Wright and Farakan...do these names strike a bell???

Remember...the Senate has been controlled by Dems for the past two years...

Being safe tripe...What about your VP elect saying that Obama will be challenged within the first 6 months of his Presidency. Since 9/11 our enemies didn't think it necessary to try us.

Iraq...I know we lost too many good men and woman...but has the Surge being successful come to mind.

Plus so many other things...

You have always done a good job at Bush bashing and insulting him...As you know, Barack Hussein Obama was NOT my choice...but contrary to you and your thinking...I will respect the office of the President and not insult or bash him.

Mark my words...we are not in for a utopia...but a very difficult time...

Smarter than that...You bet I am that's why I am a Conservative Republican...

[Bob]

Everyone should feel free to express any point of view in this forum. The only caveat is that we should attack and confront ideas, policies, etc., rather than one another.

Personally, I would benefit from reading the reasoning behind each member's point of view. Many of us hold strong opinions, but still find that a well-reasoned contrary argument gets us to thinking and even - occasionally - changing our opinion.

Bob Martinez
Moderator

[Betty]

Perhaps if we took the voter registration system away from the parties and made it a non-partisan entity, as in some European countries, the system might improve. Having said that, I am not advocating this system be another government program. It would have to be private - and I cannot foresee what problems would then ensue. Maybe some of our European Forum members might share their insight.
Betty

[Xose]

We are in agreement that we, as a country, are in for a very difficult time. Of course, the reason for that is leaving Washington (FINALLY) in mid-January. Good riddance.

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

Xose you are some piece of work...not meant in a insulting way.

Now, for the next 4 years, the Senate and the House are mostly Dems...let's see how wonderfully they will handle each and every crisis. Its too bad ,because now you can't blame the Republicans or President Bush...so now who will be blamed????? What goes around comes around.

I guess the media will be silent on whatever happens because they are in the new administration's pocket.

We can wait for 2/4 years...because WE WILL BE BACK...YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT.

Barbara

[Xose]

When the Democrats are in power things go pretty well, as far as I can tell!

Liberal media? Come on. Like Bush didn't get a free pass on the Iraq war?

[Art]

.... eliminating fraud is indeed the question and my concern.
Those who are not homeless must show driver's ID, utility bill with their address or other form of identification to vote. Purpose is to reduce fraud. Somehow listing a park bench on the other side of this scale looks quite imbalanced to me. I do not have a solution.

I've been serving as a chief election judge in a local precinct for several years, so I can address this. Voters do not need to show id when they go to the polls, unless they didn't do that when they registered. When you register now, and this is fairly new, you usually do need to prove your identity, at least in MD. But as Betty said, there are many forms of id (such as bank statements and utility bills) which can be used.

The reports I have heard, indicate that the fear of massive voter fraud is not based on reality (at least not in recent years). I haven't seen anyone voting for the dead. What I saw was people reporting their loved ones who had moved or died so they would be removed from the voter rolls.

The underlying intention of this fear mongering may be to encourage fear of fraud so that reactionary policies are implemented. Some media reports have flamed those fears, as we saw with the ACORN stories of late. From what I've seen, it appears that the fear of fraud has been encouraged by unsavory elements in order to discourage the poor from voting. That's pretty ugly, isn't it?

[Art]

Perhaps if we took the voter registration system away from the parties and made it a non-partisan entity, as in some European countries, the system might improve. Having said that, I am not advocating this system be another government program. It would have to be private - and I cannot foresee what problems would then ensue. ...

Betty, voter registration IS run by the government. It is local governments (state and county in MD) that fulfill this mission. Voter registration is not run by the parties, although any group (as far as I can tell) is welcome to encourage people to fill out registration forms. On election day, I hand out registration forms to people regardless of their party affiliation.

Regardless of who hands a person a registration form, it is local government officials who review the applications and approve or disapprove them. Even after one is registered to vote, the government also checks on whether each voter's registration is still valid. In Maryland, if someone doesn't vote in several consecutive elections or if multiple mailings from the Board of Elections are returned, a voter can be put on "inactive" status.

Obviously, there are data entry mistakes and the volunteers who run our elections sometimes make the wrong decisions about who can vote and how they can vote (on the machine or with a provisional ballot). For the most part, however, it's a smooth, fair process. I'd guess that of the 1350 votes (more or less) cast in our precinct, there were 4 or so instances of significant problems. Most of them were check-in judge errors or data entry problems that occurred during the registration process or in updating of records. A few were problems created when judges in other precincts didn't understand the rules about where a person should vote after they have moved. That's something like 0.3% of voters encountering problems, and all of them were resolved in a way that attempted to preserve the voters' right to vote.

I should say that my crew was particularly good, so the rate of errors might be higher in other precincts. Election judges are just average people who get very little training and work a very long day. Some are below average and some are above average. The election board doesn't do much screening because they're too much in need of warm bodies.

If you, as a voter, run into one of the below average, keep pressing for your rights. Ask to speak to a chief judge. If that doesn't help, ask them to call the election board for help. I've made mistakes and occasionally when I've called the election board I've gotten bad information, but it's usually right on. At every level I've been surprised that in such a partisan atmosphere as an election, the intentions of the people who run the elections are unbiased, selfless, and honorable.

That's your government at work, Betty. Is there incompetence? You bet, but you'll see the same in corporate America, as we've witnessed with the Wall Street meltdown, which of course is also partially the fault of incompetent government officials and partisan government policies.

Our problems aren't the government and they aren't the corporations. It isn't the Republicans and it isn't the Democrats. Our problems are human, which is why all such organization require oversight, regulation, and checks and balances.

I'm not looking for perfection from a Democratic-led Congress and White House. I'm hoping they'll be smart enough to know that they need to work toward a national consensus. That's something Republican radicals have ignored for the past many years, just as every party in power tends to ignore it.

The dream Obama talks about isn't domination by Democrats, it's building a common vision and working toward our common goals. If he can achieve even 20% of this vision, he'll be a great American president. If he gives us the partisan mediocrity that most presidents have left us with, he'll be a terrible disappointment, as GW Bush has been.

I am amazed that anyone could label Obama a radical. He's so moderate it's boring. If you think Obama is radically to the left, please take a look at how far to the right you are. Everyone likes to think they're in the middle. Given the range of views, we can't all be in the center.

[Betty]

"I've been serving as a chief election judge in a local precinct for several years, so I can address this. Voters do not need to show id when they go to the polls, unless they didn't do that when they registered. When you register now, and this is fairly new, you usually do need to prove your identity, at least in MD. But as Betty said, there are many forms of id (such as bank statements and utility bills) which can be used. " - Art

Art. because you tell me it is so, I am sure this is true in MD - it is not true in OH.
When voting at the polls one must have identity with an address which matches the voter registration system. Here is the info from the League of Women Voters website:

"Take the Right ID to the Polls
You must present ONE of the following in order to vote:
A government photo ID (Ohio’s Driver’s license or State ID – showing either your current or your former address, as long as the ID has not expired), OR one of the following that shows your current address1:
+military ID, + paycheck, + copy of a current utility bill, +government check, or bank statement, +government document showing your name and current address."
http://www.lwvohio.org/pdf/Voter%20Flyer%202008.pdf

It goes on to explain provisional ballots etc.

Betty, voter registration IS run by the government. It is local governments (state and county in MD) that fulfill this mission. Voter registration is not run by the parties, although any group (as far as I can tell) is welcome to encourage people to fill out registration forms.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my statements. I should have realized not everyone in the world was aware of the situations taking place in Ohio concerning voter registration and Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner. Obviously my comments needed more elaboration of Ohio's activities which included appealing to the Justice Department and some say requests for influence by Pres. Bush.

The Republican Party sued the Democratic Secretary because she said she would not cross-check the new voter registrations and make them available to the local boards.

"Meanwhile, this week, the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it would not force Brunner to complete the checks and release names of newly registered voters with mis-matching information.

"Republicans in Congress had made the unusual request, first asking the Justice Department directly and then asking President Bush to lean on the department."

"Brunner argued that federal rules only require the state to have a system in place for double-checking registrations but do not require her to make the checks."

"Brunner said the Justice Department would need a court order to force her to complete the checks and release names and added that she has been assured that no such litigation will be filed before Tuesday. In pledging to rebuild Ohio's voter registration database, Brunner said she hopes to head off any future litigation on this matter."

http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/ ... ratio.html


"Sunday, October 12, 2008
Jennifer Brunner, Ohio's Goddess of Vote Fraud
“When even the Democratic press release digest known as The Columbus Dispatch expresses dismay at the Ohio Secretary of State's partisan antics, you know things have gotten really out of hand. Jennifer Brunner, whose business card reads "Goddess of Voter Registration Fraud" (or so I've heard), took a well-deserved bludgeoning in today's editorial.”

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... oddess-of-
vote.html

So, perhaps you can now understand why I raised the question whether our voter registration system should continue under partisan oversight.
This is my local and federal government in action, indeed.
Betty

[Bob]

That's interesting, but I fail to see how voter registration can be made entirely nonpartisan since elected officials are usually members of political parties, as are the appointed officials who are appointed by elected officials. I remember problems in Florida in past elections, as well as in other states.

I also don't quite understand why a utility bill is accepted as proof of identity.

[Betty]

Bob, you most likely are correct that the non-partisan would not solve ills in the system - we are dealing with humans. These situations lend the perception of underhandedness... sometimes perception is reality. We had a different, but nonetheless "situation" with our former Secretary of State, Ken Blackwell, in the last Presidential election. It has become a concern. The creation of a private entity to oversee these functions was on the ballot a few years ago and it was soundly defeated. One of the talking points during that ballot issue was that in many countries this is the way the system is run. I was curious if any Forum Members have personal knowledge.

On the utility bills being accepted, it is because they have your name and address. That address has to match the address in the voter registration book and is the same address to which acknowledgment letters were sent (and presumably were not returned to the board of elections) when the voter initially registered.

Betty

[Art]

That's very interesting, Betty.

I hadn't realized that Blackwell was no longer in charge. Your explanation makes me think the situation there is much worst than I had imagined.

Democracy requires that the people trust the elections to be fair. I'm sure you're well aware that Ohio's elections have been anything but fair, at least in recent years. That's very damaging to the system.

I agree that every human is capable of despicable behavior, but a position like the election board should be as de-politicized as possible. It is possible. Ours in Maryland is pretty clean. I don't hear any complaints about partisanship by the election board. (But stupidity in their selection of voting machines, you bet!) In recent elections, the precinct election judges where I worked went out of their way to be fair. It's heart-warming to see Democrats and Republicans working together to ensure that everyone has a chance to vote.

One obvious solution is to take day-to-day control of the elections away from any elected officials. Many similar government tasks are done by career bureaucrats. Now, bureaucrats get a bad rap, but they are pretty good in general at keeping the partisan out of citizen services.

Betty's right about utility bills. Essentially, the government is looking for collaborating evidence that you are who you say you are. When you try to identify yourself for a drivers license in Maryland, I think a utility bill is also one form of identification that is accepted (but you have to have more than one like that).

Our Asturian cousins might not realize that every state in the US has different laws about elections. Some things are regulated by the federal government and some by the states. These differences make business and even living in the US more complicated.

The idea of states' rights has been a contentious issue since the beginning of our nation, when the individual states agree to coalesce into one nation. The concept makes some sense given the differences between the different regions of the US. An agricultural state, for example, would have practical reasons to grant driver's licenses at a younger age than an urban state.

Unfortunately, states' rights have also been abused to defend retrograde practices, such as slavery and the denial of the right to vote and other civil rights for African-Americans. I don't know if this is accurate, but my sense is that states' rights has often been invoked to permit conservative states to maintain the status quo at the expense of minority groups.

[Bob]

I get utility bills in two states, but am only registered to vote in one. If I chose to register in both, I doubt that anyone would be aware that I was voting twice, but it just doesn't seem ethical to me.