FAQFAQ          SearchSearch          MemberlistMemberlist          UsergroupsUsergroups    RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile          Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages          Log inLog in          
End of democracy in Spain? ¿Fin de democracia en España?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Asturian-American Migration Forum Index -> The Future of Asturias - El futuro de Asturias
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: End of democracy in Spain? ¿Fin de democracia en España? Reply with quote

In this article the President of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, who has also been prime minister of Portugal, talks of a potentially dark and dangerous future for Spain, Greece and Portugal.

Some claim that Barroso is being unnecessarily provocative and thus irresponsible. It sounds to me that he knows the situation well and is simply trying to warn us of the extreme instability of the present moment.

-----------------------------------

En este artículo el Presidente de la Comisión Europea, José Manuel Barroso, quien también ha sido primer ministro de Portugal, habla de un futuro potencialmente oscuro y peligroso para España, Grecia y Portugal.

[Lo siento, no sé si existe el artículo en español.]

Algunos afirman que Barroso está siendo innecesariamente provocadora y de este modo irresponsable. Me parece que conoce bien la situación y simplemente está tratando de advertirnos de la inestabilidad extrema del presente.
Back to top  
Terechu
Moderator


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure Durao Barroso said no such thing and there is no billion-pound bailout for Spain, who, by the way, has a lower national debt than GB.
The Mail is one of those papers who like to refer to southern European countries as PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain).

Who is falling prey to dictators, when it's The Netherlands, Belgium, etc. who are electing right wing extremists into government?

These "journalists" sound like they're on some horror trip or other. Laughing
Back to top  
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's an interesting explanation. It is odd that I could find nothing in the Spanish press about this.

I got it first from Money News. Here is another article with George Soros issuing similar warnings. The sponsors of Money News seem cheesy, so maybe it's not the best source.

Bloomberg has picked up that second story, too.

Here's another article with EU officials saying that Spain doesn't need bailing out. But that article also says that a German newspaper claims that European Central Bank President, Jean-Claude Trichet and European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso favor such a move.

The election of right-wingers elsewhere could be seen as bolstering the prediction. Of course, I hope it isn't so!

-----------------

Pues, tienes una explicación interesante. Es curioso que no he podido encontrar nada en la prensa española acerca de esto.

Lo encontré primero en Money News. Aquí hay otro artículo con advertencias similares por George Soros. Los patrocinadores de Money News parecen rascas, por lo que quizás no sea una fuente muy útil.

Pero Bloomberg publicó esa segunda historia también.

Aquí hay otro artículo en que oficiales de UE dicen que España no requerirá ayuda bancaria. Pero ese artículo también dice que un periódico alemán afirma que el presidente del Banco Central Europeo, Jean-Claude Trichet, y el presidente de la Comisión Europea, José Manuel Barroso, están en favor de tal medida.

La elección de derechistas en otras paises puede ser vista como reforzar la predicción. ¡Pero, por supuesto, espero que no sea así!
Back to top  
Terechu
Moderator


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interested rumour that started a couple of weeks ago in Germany - nobody knows who started it - and Angela Merkel denied it straight away. Somebody is trying to manoeuvre the Euro into a corner. Meantime the price of gold and other metals is rising. Who's behind all this? I guess the usual Speculation Brigade.

By the way, Spain's banks came away from last year's crisis unfettered.
Back to top  
Berodia



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Cabrales

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No se puede acabar lo que nunca empezó.

-------------------------
trans. Art

You can't finish what never began.
Back to top  
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

¿Berodia, debo interpretar tu comentario pare decir que no se puede poner fin a rumores tontos cuando no tengan base?

Es interesante ver cómo se difunde ideas con el fin de influir el curso de los acontecimientos. Y aquí estoy ayudándoles!

--------------------

Should I interpret your comment, Berodia, as saying you can't put an end to silly rumors when there's no basis to them?

It's interesting how people spread ideas in order to influence the course of events. And here I am helping them!
Back to top  
Berodia



Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Cabrales

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Art.

Mi anterior comentario era referencia al titulo de este hilo.

Los problemas de España, y de Asturias, son varios: la inmensa corrupción, la dependencia del poder judicial y legislativo del ejecutivo. No existe separación de poderes en este país. Y la distinta vara de medir de la administración en función del cliente: si es pobre, ley implacable, o si pertenece a la oligarquía, todo le es permitido.

Eso sin contar con todos las rémoras del franquismo, que ahí siguen, como una clase política especialmente estúpida, además de corrupta, por no decir delincuente. Lo que vemos aquí y ahora es sólo los síntomas de este mal crónico de España.

Conclusión: la democracia en España no se puede acabar porque nunca la hubo.

-------------------------------
trans. Art

No, Art.

My previous comment was referring to the title of this thread.

The problems of Spain and Asturias, are several: the immense corruption, the dependence of the judicial and legislative branches of government on the executive. There is no separation of powers in this country. Another problem is the different measuring stick used by the administration depending on the client: if you are poor the law is inflexible, but if you belong to the oligarchy, everything is permitted.

And that's not mentioning all the hindrances of Franquismo [Art: basically the political, social, economic, structures derived in the era of Franco], which still continue today, as well as a political class which is particularly stupid, and corrupt, if not criminal. What we see here and now is only the symptoms of a chronic disease in Spain.

Conclusion: democracy in Spain can not end because it never existed.
Back to top  
ayalgueru
Moderator


Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 108
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terechu wrote:
This is an interested rumour that started a couple of weeks ago in Germany - nobody knows who started it - and Angela Merkel denied it straight away. Somebody is trying to manoeuvre the Euro into a corner. Meantime the price of gold and other metals is rising. Who's behind all this? I guess the usual Speculation Brigade.

By the way, Spain's banks came away from last year's crisis unfettered.


Totally unfettered yes,,, http://www.economist.com/node/16231412

Gosh ! that speculators ... there is a world-wide conspiracy to undermine the enlighted political project of Mr Zapatero, of course nothing to do with pitiful estate of our finances and our inability to service our debt, it is all the works of evil characters manouvering behind the shadows.

Spain, by the way ,has already been rescued on the 7th of May Spain could get no buyers for their debt issue, the ECB and IMF stepped in to fork out the cash ,,, without that Spain would have defaulted already just like Argentina did in 2002.

And no, speculators are not to blame, this is what happens when you spend way more that you can afford while you close your eyes, sing a happy song and hope that things would turn out just fine in the end, which is what the spanish government has been doing for years.
_________________
splish-splash
the cat washes in the river...
spring rain
Isaa Kobayashi (1816)
Back to top  
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that's good, Berodia. Now I understand the reference. You explained it well.

Interestingly, the article from the Economist that Ayalgueru linked to indicates that an Asturian savings bank (caja) was among those merging in order to receive funds from the Fund for Orderly Bank Restructuring (FROB).

---------------------------

Muy bien, Berodia. Ahora entiendo la referencia. Bien explicado.

Es interesante que en el artículo del The Economist que pegó Ayalgueru se indica que una caja asturiana fue una de las que se han fusionado con objeto de recibir fondos del Fondo de Reestructuración Ordenada Banco (FROB).
Back to top  
Ayandés



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo digo lo mismo que Berodia, no se puede perder lo que nunca existió. La democracia española es el resultado de una reforma (profunda, pero reforma) del franquismo. No hay unos principios asumidos por la sociedad como los que pueden existir en Francia, en Inglaterra, en los EEUU,... Si no se asumen esos principios el sistema es frágil.

Y no tiene tanto que ver con las ideas de los partidos que se presenten a las elecciones, como los ejemplos que pone Terechu. En Francia puede tener fuerza la derecha, es un país bastante conservador en algunos aspectos, pero dudo mucho que nadie se plantee pisar la república.

Aquí lo que se asume es el Rey (que es muy campechano, muy bueno y muy majo...), la unidad, la bandera y cuatro tonterías más.

------------------------------
trans. Art

I say the same thing as Berodia: you can not lose what never existed. Spanish democracy is the result of a reform (deep, but still just a reform) of the Franco Regime (franquismo). Spanish society did not adopt any of the principles that you would find in France, England, the U.S., etc. Because Spain failed to adopt these principles, the system is fragile.

And this doesn't have much relationship to the ideas of the political parties, which they'll promote during the elections, like the examples Terechu gave. In France, you can have the right wing in power, as France is a fairly conservative country in some respects, but I strongly doubt that anyone there would want to overthrow the republic.

Instead, what we've adopted here in Spain is the King (You'll hear that he is very "campechano" [someone who is down-to-earth, open, friendly and kind], very good, very handsome, etc.), national unity, the flag, and four other sillinesses.
Back to top  
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate the frank assessments by our Asturian friends. What you all are saying is contrary to the popular myth of modern Spain which is held by people in the US and, apparently, in Spain, too. This would explain some of the incongruities I've noticed. I'll have to recalibrate my thinking.

On the other hand, you may be giving the UK, France, and the US too much credit. Although there are people in the US, for example, who will defend our democratic principles, polls (and elections) indicate that the majority don't believe in the principles laid down in our Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. George W. Bush easily undermined a number of those principles and only a minority complained.

Democracy is always fragile, always reversible. There's always a tyrant itching to take over and always a large portion of any country's people who think that would be perfect solution to their problems. (And in their case, they might be right. But for the rest, clearly that's not so.)

----------------------------

Agradezco la evaluación franca de nuestros amigos asturianos. Lo que estáis diciendo es contrario al mito popular de la España moderna, que mantiene muchas personas en los EE.UU. y, al parecer, en España también. Esto explicaría algunas de las incongruencias que he notado. Tengo que recalibrar mi pensamiento.

Por otra parte, tal vez deis al Reino Unido, Francia y los EE.UU. demasiado mérito. Aunque hay personas en los EE.UU., por ejemplo, que defenderá los principios democráticos, las encuestas (y las elecciones) indican que la mayoría no creen en los principios establecidos en nuestra Declaración de Independencia y la Declaración de Derechos (Bill of Rights). George W. Bush debilitó con facilidad varios de esos principios y sólo una minoría se quejaba.

La democracia es siempre frágil, siempre reversible. Siempre hay un tirano que moriría por hacerse cargo y siempre una gran parte del pueblo de cualquier país que piensa que éso sería la solución perfecta a sus problemas. (Y en su caso, tal vez tenga razón. Pero para lo demás, claro que no.)
Back to top  
ayalgueru
Moderator


Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 108
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art wrote:
On the other hand, you may be giving the UK, France, and the US too much credit. Although there are people in the US, for example, who will defend our democratic principles, polls (and elections) indicate that the majority don't believe in the principles laid down in our Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. George W. Bush easily undermined a number of those principles and only a minority complained.

Democracy is always fragile, always reversible. There's always a tyrant itching to take over and always a large portion of any country's people who think that would be perfect solution to their problems. (And in their case, they might be right. But for the rest, clearly that's not so.)


I can only say ... Amen to all of the above .
_________________
splish-splash
the cat washes in the river...
spring rain
Isaa Kobayashi (1816)
Back to top  
Ayandés



Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sin duda, la democracia es frágil. Yo añadiría que la democracia, en su sentido estricto de "poder del pueblo" no está poniéndose en práctica en ningún estado del mundo. Hay ensayos (algunos cantones suizos, creo que el estado indio de Kerala, Montevideo, etc) de dar una mayor capacidad de representación al pueblo pero la democracia representativa no deja de ser dar el poder a una minoría durante varios años. Una minoría que suele estar mediatizada por empresarios, etc. que evidentemente velan por sus propios intereses, también de una pequeña minoría. Al final la función de la mayoría de la población se reduce a dar el bastón de mando a unos o a otros cada cierto tiempo, decidir quién es menos malo.

Pero bueno, si entendemos que todo eso es la democracia y que nuestros países son democráticos sigue habiendo unas diferencias enormes. Creo que se pueden resumir en un hecho muy ilustrativo, en EEUU y RU (UK) nunca hubo ni hay ni es fácil que llegue a haber una dictadura. ¿Hay algún partido o grupo en esos países que proponga la abolición de la capacidad de decisión del pueblo?
Aquí todavía hay sectores de la población que estarían encantados de que se diese eso. La derecha supo adaptar muy bien su imagen al nuevo juego, entre otras cosas porque en la Europa de la segunda mitad del s.XX o se presenta como democrática o se queda sin amigos. Pero en muchos casos es simplemente la imagen, me viene a la cabeza aquel concejal de Xixón que hace ahora unos 7 años gritó "esto pasa por la puta democracia" ante las críticas que estaba recibiendo su partido por la posición en la Guerra de Irak.
Back to top  
Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4471
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sí, tienes razón que sería una cuestión de grados y que probablemente no existe un democracia completa en cualquier país.

Estoy casi seguro de que he escuchado a algunas personas de empresas grandes aquí en EE.UU. lamentando que tenemos una democracia representativa.

-----------------------

Yeah, you're right that "democracy" is a matter of degree and that there's probably no complete democracy in any country.

I'm pretty sure that I've heard some people from big businesses here in the US lament that we have a representative democracy.
Back to top  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Asturian-American Migration Forum Index -> The Future of Asturias - El futuro de Asturias All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Site design & hosting by

Zoller Wagner Digital Design