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What is AsturianUS to you? / ¿Qué significa Asturianus?
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4475
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:38 am    Post subject: What is AsturianUS to you? / ¿Qué significa Asturianus? Reply with quote

At this February's "The First Symposium on the Asturian Presence in the United States" I'll be giving a presentation about this forum. My talk will be titled: "El mundo es un pañuelo [It's a small world]: Asturians Building Community via the Internet."

I plan to talk about briefly about the origins of the forum, who takes part and why they take part. I also want to give examples of what has occurred as a result of the forum.

To do this well, I will need to learn about YOUR thoughts and experiences. I'll list here some questions to give you an idea of what I had in mind, but please don't feel limited by these questions. I welcome all thoughts and any other question you wish to ask.
  • What are your perceptions of the forum? (Positive and negative ideas are both fine.)

  • Has the forum made any difference in your life?

  • We have members from all over the globe. What do you see happening with these connections across great distances?

  • Why do you participate?

  • Does having this forum do anything positive for Asturias or for the US?

If you'd rather submit your ideas privately, please email me. My email is at the very bottom of this webpage.

Thanks, amigos!

-------------------

En la "Primer simposio sobre la presencia asturiana en los Estados Unidos" este febrero daré una presentación sobre este foro. Mi charla será titulada: "El mundo es un pañuelo: Asturianos construyendo una comunidad vía la internet. "

Planifico hablar brevemente sobre los orígenes del foro, quién somos los socios y por qué participamos. También quiero dar unos ejemplos de lo que han ocurrido como consecuencia del foro.

Para hacerlo bien, tendré que aprender TUS pensamientos y experiencias. Aquí enumeraré algunos preguntas para darte una idea de que tengo en mente, pero por favor no te sientes limitado por estas preguntas. Doy la bienvenida a todos los pensamientos y cualquier otra pregunta que deseas plantear.
  • ¿Cuáles son tus percepciones del foro? (Están bien ideas positivas o negativas.)

  • ¿Ha hecho el foro alguna diferencia en tu vida?

  • Tenemos miembros del mundo entero. ¿Qué acontecimientos ocurren con estas conexiones a través de grandes distancias?

  • ¿Por qué participas en el foro?

  • ¿Hace la presencia de este foro algo positivo para Asturias o para EU?

Si prefirieras presentar tus ideas en privado, por favor envíamelos por correo electrónico. Mi emilio está precisamente al borde inferior de este página web.

¡Gracias, amigos!
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Terechu
Moderator


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this forum to the point where I have stopped posting in other, less interesting ones (music, health, policitical forums), to dedicate more time to this one.

The one difference it has made in my life is that I get restless if for whatever reason I cannot log in for a couple of days. I don't feel that way about any other. Is that an "addiction"? IF so, I confess I'm addicted.

We still have to work a little on how members relate to eachother, to make sure that nobody feels personally attacked when other members disagree with them. We should get the message across that everybody is welcome and nobody should feel they are being "ganged up" on when they get negative feedback, because it's not true.
I think that aspect is getting better, though.
------------------------------------
A mí me encanta este foro hasta el punto de que he dejado de participar en algunos otros, menos interesantes (de música, salud, política) para dedicarle más tiempo a este.

La mella que ha hecho en mi vida es que me noto inquieta si por algún motivo no puedo entrar en un par de días. Eso no me ocurre con otros foros. ¿Es adicción? Pues si lo es, confieso que soy adicta.

Aún tenemos que trabajar un poco en las relaciones entre los miembros para que nadie se sienta atacado personalmente cuando los demás discrepan. Hay que dejar sentado que todo el mundo es bienvenido y que nadie debe sentirse como que somos "todos contra uno" cuando recibe muchas respuestas negativas, porque no es cierto.
De todos modos, creo que en este aspecto estamos mejorando.

Hugs
Terechu
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Eli
Moderator


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 308
Location: Luray, VA. US

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

# What are your perceptions of the forum? (Positive and negative ideas are both fine.)

I think it needs more color throw in some reds, and yellow and a little blue here and there yeah that'll do it*. Wink

A forum as any other place is a reflection of it's members, generally speaking like minds seek each other, although we all want the others to have enough in common with us so that we can relate yet there must be enough differences between us that we can maintain a dialogue disagree with and converse so that we can learn from others and enjoy their company. If everybody agrees with everything everybody else says sooner rather than later the company we keep loses it's appeal.

I believe the members of this forum have enough in common to enjoy each other and at the same time there is enough diversity so that conversations can be had. I also think that the vast majority of the members are for some reason rather unwilling to say what they think, although they certainly read what is posted. Don't know them enough to be able to venture an idea as to why that may be. I do know that generally speaking in any given forum only 5-7 % of the members are active and the rest passive. It is my belief that members are one or the other depending on what is happening in their lives at the time, what they are exposed to will affect whether or not they are willing to speak up, even if they know people will agree with them. Somebody said there are 600 members here, that would mean that there should be about 30 posters, assuming these people post at least once a month. I don't browse all the boards so I don't know if there are that many or more posters.



# Has the forum made any difference in your life?

Not really, not yet, but I'm relatively new here. Who knows, maybe I'll meet a woman here go on to marry her and then we get divorced, she takes half of everything, then the forum will have made a big difference in my life.

# We have members from all over the globe. What do you see happening with these connections across great distances?

Not certain that I see anything happening in that regard. That said I'm not opposed to making friends with people I've met on the net. I met my last g/f that way, and that was the longest relationship I've ever had Smile


# Why do you participate?

It is a place were I find a little distraction, often intellectual stimulation. I happen to be a man that needs to be constantly challenged in my life, I don't take very well to an everyday routine, if that happens I seek intellectual stimulation in one form or another, guess I play chess for the same reason. If there are no posts/threads that challenge my intellect one way or another I soon get bored.


# Does having this forum do anything positive for Asturias or for the US?

hmm interesting question. Can't speak for Asturias since I haven't read much from them in that regard, but it appears to me that in the US it certainly has some sort of impact on the members of the forum. From what I've read I know people organize festivals of sorts and get together for other occassions.


I can't think of anything to add to your talk, within the parameters given. If you were to leave the subject open ended then, well, there is plenty that although hasn't happened yet I can see happening one day. I will in time spend some time in Asturias, going there to do research, I'm trying to find out if Asturian women are better lovers than Unitedstadians you see, anyways, when I come back I'll be happy to report to you my thoughts and experiences on this very serious matter. I may ask for a grant from the government to fund this research, at this time I envision a two year project.

Smile



* Although I'm only kidding, it is a well known fact that colors will affect the mood of people. What I don't know is how much of that is cultural. Most of the literature on the net is geared towards English speaking people that clearly have much in common given that they are a relatively speaking homogenous society. Black Africans and Native Americans from south America tend to favor bright colors for their clothing and furniture while in western societies more serious tones are preferred.
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Terechu
Moderator


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eli, although I too love colourful things, I think the faded browns of the photographs in the heading are what sets the mood, so I don't really miss bright colours in this case, in fact I kind of like this subdued turn-of-the-century monochromatism. It's more authentic and conveys the feeling of those brownish pictures of immigrants arriving to the new world on steam boats. I suppose that's what Art intended, too.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Eli, aunque a mí también me encanta el colorido, creo que el color sepia de las fotos del encabezado es lo que da el tono de esta página, así que no echo de menos colores fuertes en este caso, de hecho me gusta este monocromatismo suave de cambio de siglo. Es más auténtico y trasmite mejor el ambiente de aquellas fotos sepia de los emigrantes que llegaban al nuevo mundo en barcos de vapor. Supongo que esa habrá sido la intención de Art, creo.

Cheers
Terechu
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Eli
Moderator


Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 308
Location: Luray, VA. US

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok then lets get creative
http://tinyurl.com/d63rq

Wink
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4475
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Eli and Terechu for your comments. (Yes, Terechu is right about my thinking in regard to the colores, although I understand what Elí is saying.)

The conference is next week. Does anyone else have any thoughts?

Why do you participate in the forum?

What does this community mean to you?

----------------

Gracias a Terechu y Elí para vuestras observaciones. (Sí, Terechu tiene razón sobre mis pensamientos con respecto a los colores, aunque entiendo lo que quiere Elí.)

El simposio es la semana que viene. ¿Hay otras personas quienes quieren compartir sus pensamientos?

¿Porqué participas en el foro?

¿Qué te significa esta communidad?
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Mafalda



Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 257
Location: España

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A ver, que tenia yo los deberes atrasados, ya ni me acordaba de contestar a este post de Art.

---¿Cuáles son tus percepciones del foro? (Están bien ideas positivas o negativas.)
Mi primera percepción del foro, fué que la gente que participaba en él, era gente "de casa".
Mi gran asombro, la primera vez que entré fué encontrar a un montón de personas que eran de mi pueblo, de mi pueblo en la actualidad, y de mi pueblo hace 100 años, cuando mi abuelo y muchos de mis tios-abuelos marcharon al "Norte" en busca del futuro.
Al continuar leyendo hilos, vi que se hablaba de mi tierra, de su historia y de su presente, con un fondo de morriña importante.

---¿Ha hecho el foro alguna diferencia en tu vida?, Realmente, no, sin embargo, confieso que le dedico mas tiempo del que realmente puedo disponer, entro a todas horas para ver si hay respuestas a los posts, o para ver si se han traducido otros que considero importantes, y me cabreo si no es asi, esta claro que animicamente me toca alguna fibra sensible.

---Tenemos miembros del mundo entero. ¿Qué acontecimientos ocurren con estas conexiones a través de grandes distancias?
Es bonito contactar con gente que esta a miles de kilometros, al mismo tiempo la conexión se hace especialmente dificil con algunas personas debido a la problemática del idioma, las traducciones son una de las asignaturas pendientes del foro, bueno, eso o que los españoles aprendamos inglés y que los del otro lado del Atlántico aprendan español.

---¿Por qué participas en el foro?
Esta preguntita se las trae, es de "nota"...no se, quizas por lo que explicaba al principio, "me llama", quiero saber de mi gente, se que si hoy doy un paseo por Piedras Blancas, Salinas, Arnao, me encontraré con un monton de gente conocida, algunos de ellos incluso son de mi familia mas o menos cercana, y desde que encontré este foro, soy consciente de que en algún lugar de EE.UU, hay una "burbuja" de gente que tiene esos mismos lazos conmigo, Annmoore, Moundsville, Clarksburg, Donora...de vez en cuando encuentro algun post, como los ultimos de Roberto, y no puedo evitar intentar saber a que familia pertenece, llamo a mis tias, ancianas ya, a mis hermanos, a mis primos, poco a poco el puzzle va tomando forma, me resulta muy excitante saber donde vivía esta familia, quienes eran y quienes son, y comunicarselo a Roberto...luego nadie traduce los post, y aparece el desencanto, porque da igual lo que yo pueda decir, Roberto no se entera.

---¿Hace la presencia de este foro algo positivo para Asturias o para EU?
Hombre, no, tanto como eso no, no creo que tengamos mas importancia que la que tienen cuatro amigos que se reunen de vez en cuando para charlar, nunca arreglarán el mundo, pero aportan sus ideas, y se quedan tan agusto.

En cuanto al comentario de Eli, a mi los colorines tambien me gustan, pero estamos hablando de historias de hace 100 años, las fotos eran en blanco y negro y eso no tiene réplica, si que hecho en falta imágenes, humor, en algunos casos comprensión, preguntas ¿os habeis dado cuenta de que la mayor parte de las preguntas que se hacen en los posts, se quedan sin respuesta?, y eso que las preguntas son mas bien pocas, se publican historias y no parecen provocar la curiosidad de nadie, en otras ocasiones, los debates llegan a un grado de acritud importante y despues te das cuenta de que un forero que aportaba mucho al foro, ha desaparecido, ya no nos cuenta nada, desencanto?
En fin, espero que a nadie le moleste este poquito de critica constructiva, todos somos iguales, aunque todos seamos diferentes, el dia que entendamos eso, todos seremos mas felices.
Saludinos
_______________________

------------------
trans. Art

Let's see, I was behind in the things I had to do, so I didn't even remember to answer to Art's post.

---What are your perceptions of the forum? (Positive and negative ideas are both fine.)
My first perception of the forum, was that the people who were taking part in it were a people "from home".
To my great amazement, the first time that I came [here] I saw to a huge number of people that were from my village: my village in the present day, and my village 100 years ago, when my grandfather and many of my uncles - grandfathers went on the "North" in search of the future.
On having continued reading threads, I saw that they were speaking about my land, about its history and its present, with a fundamental, significant homesickness.

---Has forum made any difference in your life?
Not really, no, nevertheless, I confess that I dedicate more time to it than really I have, and I come back at all hours to see if there are answers to the posts, or to see if someone has translated others that I consider to be important, and get furious if that hasn't happened. Obviously, it strikes an emotionally sensitive chord in me.

---We have members from all over the globe. What do you see happening with these connections across great distances?
It is nice to make contact with people that are thousands of kilometres [from me], at the same time the connection becomes specially difficult with some persons due to the language problems. The translations are one of the unresolved issues on the forum. Well, that or the Spaniards will have to learn English and that those of another side of the Atlantic Ocean will have to learn Spanish.

---Why do you participate in the forum?
This little question is tough [Art: nice expression: "se las trae"], it "stands out" ... I don't know, perhaps because of what I was explaining initially, "it calls me". I want to know about my people. I know that if today I were to take a walk [paseo] in Piedras Blancas, Salinas, Arnao, I would meet many people I know, some of them are even members of my family, more or less closely related. And since I found this forum, am conscious that somewhere in the US, there is a "bubble" of people who have the same ties with me, Anmoore, Moundsville, Clarksburg, Donora.... Occasionally I find some post, like Robert's last ones, and cannot help but try to which family he belongs. I call my aunts, elderly already, my brothers, my cousins, and little by little the puzzle is taking form. I find it very exciting to know where this family was living, who they were and who they are, and to communicate this to Robert.... Then nobody translates the post, and the [my] disenchantment appears, because it makes no difference what I say: Robert does not find out.

---Does having this forum do anything positive for Asturias or for the US?
Whew, man, no, not much as that. I don't think that we have any more importance than four friends who get together occasionally to chat; they will never solve the [problems of the] world, but they contribute their ideas, and it gives them so much pleasure.

As for Eli's commentary I, too, like bright colors, but we are speaking about stories from 100 years ago. The photos [back then] were in black and white [i.e. sepia] and there is no [other] way to replicate them. No doubt, [in the forum] there is sometimes a lack of images, humor, in many cases comprehension, [and] questions [asking for clarification]. Have you noticed that most of the questions that are asked in the posts go unanswered, and that the questions are very few at best, stories are published and do not seem to provoke the curiosity of anybody, on other occasions, the debates reach an intense degree of acrimony and later you realize that a forum member who had been participating a lot on the forum, has disappeared, without even saying anything to us [.... Are they] disillusioned?

To close, I hope that nobody will take offense at this small constructive critique. We all are equal, though we all are different; the day that we understand that, we all will be happier.

Best wishes
_______________________

[Art: Thanks to Elí for helping me understand a difficult sentence. I've added his clarifying ideas to the translation.]
_________________
"Comienza tu día con una sonrisa, verás lo divertido que es ir por ahí desentonando con todo el mundo."
Mi amiguita Libertad ________
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Xose



Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 338
Location: Washington, D.C.

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

# What are your perceptions of the forum? (Positive and negative ideas are both fine.)

I like the forum very much, and I have learned much from it. I have always felt isolated from other Asturian-Americans, and this has really helped me connect to others in a way that was impossible before.

As far as negativity goes, the political discussions can get heated, and it's a shame that people feel ganged up on. But that's life, I guess.

# Has the forum made any difference in your life?

Yes, without the forum I would not have had the chance to go to C'Burg and meet the wonderful Spanish folks there....

# Why do you participate? To annoy my cousin Barbara. Laughing
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Barbara Alonso Novellino



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 324
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Most of my family and friends of my family who came from Asturias so many years ago are all gone...with them went a lot of information that they could have furnished if they were still here. I miss my Dad very much...he was a great source of information about Asturias.

I participate in this forum because...I really enjoy it. Most of the time its a great exchange of ideas. It was fun talking about La Farma in Moundsville, West Virginia. I was excited when my cousin Richard Smith who now lives in Australia found a picture of La Farma...then I was able to add a little history, as much as I knew, about those houses and the people who lived in them. This Forum has brought up so many happy memories when I was a child growing up, spending summers in Moundsville.

Though, I have to say there have been many times when this Forum has angered me to the point of distraction...and yes, I did feel ganged up on sometimes. But, I should be used to it because my entire family are LIberal Democrats so these discussions are really not anything new.

Has the Forum made a difference in my life?

Yes, now I am able to exchange ideas with members from the same backround as mine. I have always been very proud to be an American (relax Eli) with a very strong Spanish backround...as my Faternal and Maternal Grandparents were both from Asturias.

Why do I participate?

Not really to annoy you Xose... Laughing But I have to say YOU HAVE ON MANY OCCASIONS...I think the problem with us is...of course we are from two different political ideas...but the biggest...we are both Figales from a very strong hot blooded clan who always seem to get into it... Smile

To conclude...I look forward to reading the posts here and I usually sign in at least once a day...Hopefully this will always continue and we will be able to exchange more ideas and thoughts...at least things should be a little cooler until November 2008...

Barbara
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Carlos
Moderator


Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 528
Location: Xixón

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bueno, yo soy uno de los miembros un tanto desmoralizados del foro, y aunque alguna de mis impresiones ya se las comuniqué privadamente a Art u otras personas, aprovecharé para ponerlas aquí.

¿Por qué participas en el foro?

Pues si lo queremos decir de alguna manera, por "militancia". Me explico. Personalmente me alineo con aquellas personas que pretenden recuperar del olvido la Historia de Asturies, tengo un compromiso fuerte con esas ideas, las que de un modo general aquí se llaman "asturianismo", que se expresan en nuestra tierra mediante partidos políticos, colectivos etnográficos, asociaciones culturales, etc. Una Historia no entendida como erudición sin más, sino como una herramienta que permita comprender quiénes somos, de dónde venimos, recuperar nuestro orgullo colectivo como pueblo, para conseguir sobrevivir como tal en el futuro, y, por qué no, para entender de dónde vienen nuestros males, atajarlos, y procurar algo mejor que la actual situación.

Conocer las historias personales y colectivas de un puñado de asturianos y asturianas que emigraron a comienzos del siglo XX a EEUU forma parte de la propia Historia de Asturies. Descubrir esto ya fue una revelación, como supongo que para todo el mundo aquí, cuando esta web fue dada a conocer en los medios asturianos. No es que sean historias originales ni únicas (cosas similares ya eran bien conocidas con la emigración a otros países), pero era una laguna que de repente salía a la luz en un lugar insospechado.

Al mismo tiempo, pensaba que si podía aportar algo que nos uniera a todos y todas como parte de Asturies, no llegaría sólo a los miembros estadounidenses, sino también a asturianos de Asturies, de Madrid, de Bélgica, Argentina o donde fuera, pues este foro llega a todos esos lugares y más.

En resumen, recibir de otros y aportar algo yo mismo, eso era lo que me llevó a hacerme miembro activo del foro.

¿Ha hecho el foro alguna diferencia en tu vida?

Hombre, diferencia, diferencia, pues no. La verdad es que tampoco es el primero en el que participo, y de hecho sigo haciéndolo en otros más especializados, de Historia, de Lingüística, de política, etc. Y en todos ellos dependiendo también de otras cosas que tengo que hacer en la vida cotidiana, o lo que es lo mismo, participo según el tiempo disponible. La principal aportación que me hace este foro es romper algunos tópicos acerca de los estadounidenses. Desgraciadamente los ciudadanos USA no teneis demasiada buena prensa a lo largo de este planeta, y este foro muestra lo bueno, lo malo y lo mediocre que hay en todas partes. Es fácil conocer los tópicos de algo o alguien, pero no tan sencillo apreciar las excepciones o las divergencias del cliché, y esta comunidad virtual hace aparecer esas "anomalías", lo que para mí es entiquecedor.

¿Desmoralización?

Pues sí, de hecho estuve a punto de dejar definitivamente el foro. Finalmente no lo hice, pero ya no participo ni con la misma frecuencia ni con la misma dedicación. Algo intuía Mafalda, supongo que de modo general y no referido particularmente a mí en concreto, pero me siento aludido:
Quote:
¿os habeis dado cuenta de que la mayor parte de las preguntas que se hacen en los posts, se quedan sin respuesta ?, y eso que las preguntas son mas bien pocas, se publican historias y no parecen provocar la curiosidad de nadie, en otras ocasiones, los debates llegan a un grado de acritud importante y despues te das cuenta de que un forero que aportaba mucho al foro, ha desaparecido, ya no nos cuenta nada, desencanto?

Bingo! Diste en el clavo, amiga.

Respecto a lo primero que dices, efectivamente somos más de 700 miembros y apenas intervienen ¿10, 12? Eso suele suceder en todos los foros de Internet, pero aquí es especialmente llamativo. Se supone que hay un colectivo que está intentando (o debería tener interés) en descubrir sus raíces, ¿no? Pues no, al parecer, ni fu ni fa. Muy contadas personas muestran ese interes, casi nadie pregunta nada.

Otro problema es el de los idiomas. Yo hablo perfectamente asturiano, español y francés, puedo expresarme bastante bien en gallego, algo peor en portugués e italiano, y entiendo bastante bien, salvo palabras sueltas, el inglés, pero nunca estudié esta lengua. No me plantea ningún problema de comprensión leer en inglés, pero me resulta mucho más difícil escribir en él, como hablarlo. Se supone que tenemos un equipo de traductores, pero no me parece que funcione bien. Al comienzo tuve la percepción de que mis mensajes eran obviados, de hecho tengo la certeza de que así es en determinados casos, y no soy el único que lo percibe de esa manera porque algunas personas me lo hicieron saber con mensajes privados. Pasando por alto el hecho de que un traductor no me está haciendo a mí personalmente ningún favor, sino que en teoría se trata de un servicio a la comunidad en su conjunto, es una obligación libremente aceptada cuando se asume la responsabilidad de convertirse en traductor. Pero parece que esto no todo el mundo lo ve así.

De modo que este problema con la lengua se une a la que yo intuyo como falta de curiosidad. Si en general nadie tiene interés en saber nada, o adopta una posición pasiva tipo "voy a leer el foro, a ver qué me cuentan hoy", y además quien en teoría menos debería de conocer sobre Asturies no entiende ni español ni asturiano y nadie se lo traduce, el resultado es éste: nadie pregunta nada, y quien estaría en condiciones de contestar a algunas cuestiones se pregunta: "¿qué pinto yo aquí?"

Como andar escribiendo mis mensajes ya me lleva bastante tiempo, no me puedo permitir el lujo de entretenerme más aún con traductores on line, diccionarios, etc. Y como por otra parte quien más suele intervenir con preguntas o aportaciones del lado USA, casualmente entiende español, decidí ya hace tiempo adoptar una postura un poco cínica, pero pragmática: escribo sólo en español, y santas pascuas.

Respecto al tono de los mensajes y los "recalentamientos", bueno supongo que es normal. Dependiendo de los temas, hay que tener en cuenta que las convicciones de cada cual son muy variadas, y cada uno tenemos nuestra propia sicología y grado de apasionamiento o vehemencia. Lo cual no significa que haya por qué insultar o faltar al respeto a nadie. Querría insistir en esto de faltar al respeto. No hay una única forma de hacerlo, no es necesario insultar a nadie, esto se puede hacer de maneras más sutiles, y de hecho es la experiencia que yo siento que he tenido en algunas ocasiones. Cuando al carácter más amable o más avinagrado de cada cual le añadimos la prepotencia, los malos modales, la ignorancia, el atrevimiento, la incapacidad de rectificación o sencillamente, la falta de inteligencia sin más, aparecen los kamikazes.

Todos los foros que conozco poseen sus "trolls", y éste no podía ser una excepción. Sólo que normalmente en otros sitios a ese tipo de gente enseguida se la llama al orden. Pero si quien ejerce el papel de moderador ignora casi todo sobre el tema de debate, y si encima no se conocen las sutilezas del idioma empleado, simplemente la moderación es defectuosa, o directamente no existe.

Considero que participar en un foro implica no sólo guardar unas formas mínimas, lo que se suele llamar la "netiqueta", sino también distinguir claramente lo que son informaciones de lo que son opiniones.

Me explico. Una información es algo que uno conoce por su experiencia o sus conocimientos, algo real. Cuando uno coloca una información en un foro, lo normal es que sea algo bien conocido, por lo que no necesita más explicaciones, o bien que sea algo especializado, poco conocido. En este caso lo normal es facilitar las fuentes, para demostrar que uno no se saca las cosas de la manga: "lo decía Fulano, en tal sitio, o apareció en el periódico X o Z, etc.".

Eso no quiere decir que lo que uno está citando sea cierto, pero sí que no es un invento personal, un capricho o un prejuicio.

En cambio una opinión es algo completamente distinto. Puede deberse a que todos los asuntos pueden verse desde diferentes ángulos, a que hay más de una propuesta de solución para un problema, etc.

Sin embargo, hay gente que mezcla opiniones personales con informaciones, no se toma la más mínima molestia en justificarlas ni en deslindarlas. Y eso, coforeros y coforeras, se llama engaño. A mí personalmente me jode que haya personas que se comporten así, porque si tengo un conocimiento suficientemente sólido sobre un tema y estoy aquí para compartirlo (información), me encuentro con personas que lo discuten sin argumentación sólo porque ellas no lo conocen tan en profundidad pero les parece que sí, y manifiestan sus juicios superficialmente (opinión).

Considero que, por supuesto, todo el mundo tiene derecho a tener mayor o menor interés en un tema determinado, a saber más o menos sobre lo que sea. Por existir, existe hasta el derecho a permanecer en la ignorancia más supina. Nada que reprochar.

Pero lo que no es de recibo es descalificar la autoridad de quien habla sólo por "aneciar", por "sostenella y no enmendalla", máxime después de proporcionar al "troll" toda clase de datos y argumentos. Normalmente, con actitudes tipo "pues tú dirás misa, pero yo sigo pensando lo mismo". Otras veces, con un vergonzoso silencio. Con lo que serían de agradecer unas pocas frases tan sencillas como hombre, pues eso no lo sabía; o pensaré sobre esto que dices, o eso no lo acabo de entender, ¿podrías explicarlo mejor?. Pero no. Damos la callada por respuesta. O peor aún, descalificamos al interlocutor.

Pues bueno, pues vale. Ésa es mi percepción de este foro. Así seguiremos hasta que un día diga adiós muy buenas o espacie mis intervenciones hasta que poco a poco desaparezca.

Recomendaría a los moderadores estadounidenses que profundicen en su conocimiento del español, a ver si captan mejor el significado de hijo putativo o alma cándida.

Muchas gracias a los que alguna vez me dieron su apoyo en privado.

Saludos.

---------------------
trans. Art

Well, I am one of the rather demoralized members of the forum. Although I have already communicated some of my impressions privately to Art or other persons, I'll take the opportunity to put them here, too.

Why do you take part in the forum?

Well, if we've got to label it in some way, because of "militancy" ["militancia" can also be translated "political affiliation"]. I'll explain. Personally I align myself with those who try to recover from oblivion Asturies's history. I have a strong commitment to these ideas, which in a general way are here called "asturianismo", ideas that are expressed in our land by means of political parties, ethnographic groups, cultural associations, etc. This is not history understood simply as learning or knowledge, but as a tool that allows us to understand who we are and where we come from, to recover our collective pride as a people, to manage to survive as such in the future, and - why not - to deal with the sources of our ills, to block them and arrive at something better than the current situation.

Knowing the personal and collective histories of a few Asturian men and women who emigrated at the beginning of the Twentieth Century to the USA forms a part of Asturies's own history. Discovering this [piece of our history] was in itself a revelation, as I suppose it was for everyone here, when the Asturian media informed us about this website. It is not that they are different or unique stories (similar things were already well-known about the emigration to other countries), but it was a gap [in our knowledge] that suddenly came to light in an unsuspected place.

At the same time, I was thinking that if I could contribute something that would join us all to each other and all as part of Asturies, I would reach not only the American members, but also Asturians in Asturies, in Madrid, in Belgium, Argentina or elsewhere, because this forum covers all of these places and more.

In short, it was to receive from others and to contribute something myself that I became an active member of the forum.

Has forum made any difference in your life?

Man, a difference... a difference... well, no. The truth is that this isn't the the primary forum in which I take part, and in fact I continue to take part in other more specialized forums about history, linguistics, politics, etc. And in all of them, I take part according to the other things that I have to do in daily life, or said differently, as I have time available. The main contribution of this forum for me is that it breaks [destroys] some cliches [stereotypes] about Americans. Unfortunately you citizens of the USA aren't getting very good press around this planet, and this forum demonstrates the good, the bad, and the mediocre - which exists everywhere. It is easy to know the cliches [common stereotypes] about something or someone, but not as easy to see the exceptions or the differences from the cliche, and this virtual community brings out these "anomalies", which for me is enriching.

Demoralization?

Well, yes, in fact I was on the verge of permanently leaving the forum. Finally I did not do that, but now I take part neither with the same frequency nor with the same dedication. Mafalda sensed something, I suppose in a general way and not referring specifically to me in particular, but she could have been writing for me:
Mafalda wrote:
Have you noticed that most of the questions that are asked in the posts go unanswered, and it that the questions are at best very few, stories are published and do not seem to provoke the curiosity of anybody, on other occasions, the debates reach an intense degree of acrimony and later you realize that a forum member who had been participating a lot on the forum, has disappeared, without even saying anything to us [.... Are they] disillusioned?

Bingo! You hit it right on the head, my friend.

With regard to the first thing that you [Mafalda] say, in effect we are more than 700 members and yet scarcely something like 10 or 12 actually participate. This often happens on all internet forums, but here it is especially striking. It is supposed that there is a group here that is trying to discover (or that should have an interest in discovering) its roots, right? Well, apparently, neither one is true. Very few people show this interest; almost nobody asks anything.

Another problem is the languages. I speak perfectly Asturian, Spanish and French. I can express myself well enough in Galician, slightly worse in Portuguese and Italian, and I understand English well enough, except for a few words here and there, but I've never studied this language. It don't have any comprehension problems in reading English, but it proves to be much more difficult to write in English, like speaking it would be. We're supposed to have a team of translators, but it does not seem to me that this is working well. In the beginning I had the perception that my messages were being left out [of being translated], in fact I'm sure that is so in certain cases, and am not the only one who sees it that way because some persons made me it know through private messages. Overlooking the fact that a translator is not doing me personally any favor, but in theory is doing a service to the community as a whole, it is a freely accepted obligation when one assumes the responsibility of becoming a translator. But it seems that the whole world doesn't see it like that.

So this problem with the language joins the one that I sense as a lack of curiosity. If in general nobody is interested in knowing nothing, or adopts a passive position that might say "I am going to read the forum, to see what they tell me today", and moreover those who in theory probably know less about Asturies understand neither Spanish nor Asturian, and nobody translates it... the result is this: nobody asks anything, and the one who would be in a position to answer to some questions wonders: "How do I fit into this?" [What role should/can I play here?]

Since going about writing my messages already takes me enough time, I can't allow myself the luxury of delaying myself even more with online translators, dictionaries, etc. And since, on the other hand, those who often take part with questions or contributions from the US side happen to understand Spanish, I decided some time ago to adopt a somewhat cynical but pragmatic attitude: I write only in Spanish, and that's that [Art: an interesting expression "y santas pascuas" = "and that's that"].

With regard to the tone of the messages and the "overheating", well, I suppose that it's normal. Depending on the topic, it is necessary to bear in mind that our ideas and beliefs are very varied, and each of us have our own psychology and degree of passion or vehemence. Which does not mean that there is any reason to be insulting or disrespectful toward anyone. I would like to emphasize the part about lack of respect. There is not just one way of doing it, it is not necessary to insult anybody [outright], it is possible to do this in subtler ways, and in fact that is the experience that I feel that I have had in some occasions. When to the most kind or most sour temperment of everyone we add arrogance, bad manners, ignorance, insolence, the unwillingness to be corrected, or simply, the lack of intelligence, just like that the kamikazes appear. [Art: I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.]

All the forums that I know have "trolls", and this one couldn't be an exception. Only that normally on other websites these people are immediately called to order [brought into line]. But if those acting in the role of moderator ignore almost everything about the topic being debated, and if on top of that they don't know the subtleties of the language being used, the moderation is simply faulty, or - more to the point - does not exist.

I think that to take part in a forum implies not guarding only a few minimal forms, which is usually called the "netiquette", but also distinguishing clearly what is information from what is opinion.

I'll explain. Information is something that one knows from experience or learning, something real. When one places information in a forum, the normal thing is that it is something well-known, in which case it does not need any more explanations, or that it is something specialized, little known. In this case the normal thing is to provide the sources, to demonstrate that one does not pull these things out of one's sleeve: "So-and-so was saying it, in such a site(place), or it appeared in the newspaper X or Z, etc."

This isn't to say that what one is citing is true but, yes, that is not a personal invention, a caprice, or a prejudice.

On the other hand an opinion is something completely different. It can be due to the fact that any issue can be seen from different angles, or that there is more than one proposed solution for a problem, etc.

Nevertheless, there are people who mix personal opinion with information, who don't make even a minimal effort to justify nor define [or separate] them. And this, my fellow forum members, is called deception. Personally it pisses me off that there are people who behave in this way, because if I have sufficiently solid knowledge about a topic and I am here to share it (information), I meet people who challenge it without [developing a line of] argumentation... [and that's] only because they do not know [the topic] in as much depth but, hey, that's how it seems to them, so and they express their judgments superficially (opinion).

Of course, I believe that the whole world has right to have the greater or lesser interest in any particular topic, or to know more or less about whatever. By existing, one even has the right to remain in the most crass ignorance. There's no disgrace in that. [Art: I assume this is ironic.]

But what is not of acceptable is to discredit the authority of one who is speaking only to "make them look foolish" [Art: ?? aneciar], to "punish quality and celebrate mediocrity" [Art: ?? sostenella y no enmendalla], especially after having provided the "troll" with all kinds of information and arguments. Normally, [the troll has] the attitude that "You can say what you like, but I'll continue believing the same thing," Other times [they adopt] a shameful silence. What would be appreciated would be a few phrases as simple as "Man, I didn't know that." or "I will think about what you've said." or "I have not just understood it, could you explain it better?" But no. We give no reply [silence]. Or worse yet, we discredit the speaker.

Well, then, that's it. That's my perception of this forum. This way we will continue until one day I'll say "Good-bye, good day" or I'll space out my contributions until little by little I disappear.

I would recommend to the American moderators that they should deepen your knowledge of Spanish, to seeing if they catch better the meaning of "hijo putativo" ["supposed son", suggesting illegitimacy, I think] or "alma cándida" ["poor innocent"].

Thank you very much to those who at some time gave me your support privately.

Regards.
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Art
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Translating messages on the forum Reply with quote

I'll respond to Mafalda and Carlos at the same time, since they raised some of the same issues.

First up: the translations
I'm writing for myself, but I can say that the moderators have spoken with each other about this issue many times. On the essentials I think we view this issue similarly. But what's to disagree with? We're simply constrained by reality.

Yes, it's been our dream to translate the messages in the forum. It is still our dream but the reality is that we've not yet discovered a practical means of bringing that dream to life.

What I learned by observing one volunteer in action
Finding people willing and able to do that work has been very difficult. Recently we had a translator who was focusing on translating primarily on Carlos' and Mafalda's messages. She and worked together in figuring out more difficult meanings of several posts. She did a very good job and I enjoyed working with her. Anyone with eyes could tell you that Carlos and I both love to write. We're verbose. Anyone trying to translate our posts would be swamped. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that even the limited focus (translating one or two person's messages) was overwhelming for this translator. I'm pretty sure, too, that the daily demands of life took precedence over translating, and that's why (I think) she has been less active recently. I totally understand, and I'm grateful for this person's contribution.

Tip
Several of our translators have said that after translating a few long messages, they adopt a policy of first translating the short messages. The result is that they may never have time to do the long ones. Unfortunately, it's often the long ones that have a lot of valuable insights and information.

Perhaps we should consider summarizing long messages rather than completely translating them?

Translators are volunteers
At this point the translators are purely volunteers. It'd be great if we could pay people to do the work. If someone can arrange the funding, speak up!

Because translating is time-consuming, I tell the volunteers to choose messages which they find important or messages that interest them. Currently, only three of us - Terechu, Bob, and I - are translating. The other volunteers have worked for a few weeks and then stopped, they probably burned out because the task is so huge. Given our numbers, we can't guarantee that any particular message will be translated.

How to get a post translated
It's quite clear that we won't be able to translate all messages - unless we get a sudden surge of volunteers. The easiest way to get something translated is to ask for assistance from someone who can do it. We do try to translate messages if someone asks us. Terechu, Ledo, and Bob have been very good in helping me with translation numerous times.

Bob has begun a thread here for that purpose:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1203
Oddly, no one has accepted Bob's offer.

Finally, what makes translating so difficult?
Being able to read text in another language is hard enough; translating it requires much more skill, time, and careful attention. It's similar to the difference between being able to understand something you read and being able to explain what you've read to another person.

Last night I spent about 7 hours translating Mafalda and Carlos' messages. Why does it take so much time? There are many reasons. One is that many individual words have a variety of meanings. It's sometimes difficult to decide which meaning is being used in a particular sentence. Sometimes the sentence uses expressions that aren't in the dictionary, which really complicates the process. Also, translating is difficult for many of us because our second language is still a foreign language. We haven't had the pleasure of years of listening, speaking, reading, and writing in that language. So little things like missing accents, misspellings, and incomplete thoughts make it even harder to interpret. I don't understand a lot of the humor, the insults, the slang. Sure, I really want to. I took a class last fall to improve my abilities, but it's very difficult to pick up that level of fluency using a language part-time from a great distance.

Let me give you an example from Mafalda's message above. (I'm not picking on Mafalda. I could have just as easily chosen several passages from Carlos' message or any of a number of messages in the forum. This is just an example.)
Mafalda wrote:
En cuanto al comentario de Eli, a mi los colorines tambien me gustan, pero estamos hablando de historias de hace 100 años, las fotos eran en blanco y negro y eso no tiene réplica, si que hecho en falta imágenes, humor, en algunos casos comprensión, preguntas

That's one sentence with several ideas. I had trouble connecting the dots. I don't know whether I'm dealing with missing accents, missing transitions, misspellings, or my own stupidity. Obviously, it wouldn't be as hard if I were a native speaker. It's frustrating. The words all make sense, but I can only guess wildly about what it means. (Hey, if you can help me out, please do! I'll be happy to fix it.)
In my original translation I wrote:
As for Eli's commentary, I also like bright colors, but we are speaking about stories from 100 years ago, the photos were in black and white and it [Elí's comment ??] does not have a reply if there are in fact missing images, humor, in many cases comprehension, questions.

Elí (in the next message) has translated this sentence somewhat differently. Thank goodness his makes sense! I've added brackets for ideas that go beyond what (as far as I can tell) Mafalda actually wrote, to show how much interpretation can be involved in a useful translation.
For his translation, as provided below, Elí wrote:
As for Eli's comentary, I too enjoy the [splattering of] colors, but [in this case] we are concerned with stories of 100 [plus] years ago. [Back then] pictures were all [sepia] and there is no reproducing [their emotional effect], no doubt [sometimes] there is a lack of images and humor [in the posts], often times understanding as well as asking [for clarification].

Summary
Yes, we understand the frustration. We feel it, too. We really do want to translate messages. Three people can't do it all. If you have a message you want translated, please tell us by email or on the thread that Bob started:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1203
Concise, clear posts are easier to translate and thus are more likely to be translated (without having to ask).

[Art: I've added a translation by Elí and my own commentary.]

----------------------

Responderé a Mafalda y Carlos al mismo tiempo, ya que levantaron algunas de las mismas cuestiones.

Primero: las traducciones
Escribo para mí mismo, pero puedo decir que los moderadores hemos hablado el uno con el otro sobre esta cuestión muchas veces. Sobre los asuntos fundamentales pienso que vemos esta tema de modo similar. ¿Pero qué hay discrepar? Simplemente somos constreñidos por la realidad.

Sí, traducir los mensajes en el foro ha sido nuestro sueño. Es todavía nuestro sueño pero la realidad consiste en que aún no hemos descubierto un medio práctico para traer la vida a aquel sueño.

Qué aprendí por observar a un voluntario en acción
Encontrar a gente dispuesta y capaz de hacer aquel trabajo ha sido muy difícil. Recientemente tuvimos un traductor quien enfocó su traducción principalmente sobre los mensajes de Carlos y Mafalda. Ella y yo trabajamos juntos en el entendimiento de los significados más difíciles de varios postes. Ella hizo un trabajo muy bueno y disfruté trabajar con ella. Cualquiera con ojos podría ver que Carlos y yo ambos amamos escribir. Somos verbosos. Alguien que trata de traducir nuestros postes sería inundado. No estoy seguro, pero sospecho que incluso con el foco limitado (la traducción de los mensajes de una o dos personas) era aplastante para este traductor. Estoy bastante seguro, también, que las demandas de la vida diaria tuvieron prioridad sobre la traducción, por eso (creo) ella ha sido menos activa recientemente. Lo entiendo totalmente, y la agradezco por la contribución de esta persona.

Consejo
Varios de nuestros traductores han dicho que después de la traducción de unos mensajes largos, adoptan una política de traducir primero los mensajes cortos. El resultado es que es posible que nunca tengan tiempo para hacer los largos. Lamentablemente, es a menudo los largos que tienen muchas perspicacias e información valuosas.

¿Quizás deberíamos pensar de resumir mensajes largos más bien que completamente traducirlos?

Los traductores son voluntarios
Hoy en día los traductores son puramente voluntarios. Sería fantástico si pudiéramos pagar a socios que hacen este trabajo. ¡Si alguien puede arreglar el financiamiento, dinos!

Como la traducción exige mucho tiempo, pido a los voluntarios que escojan los mensajes que ellos mismos encuentran importante o mensajes que los interesan. Actualmente traducen sólo tres de nosotros - Terechu, Bob, y yo. Otros voluntarios han trabajado durante unas semanas y luego se han parado, probablemente estuvieron quemados por la enormidad de la tarea. Considerando nuestros números, no podemos garantizar que cualquier mensaje particular será traducido.

Como conseguir la traducción de un poste
Es bastante claro que no seremos capaces de traducir todos los mensajes - a no ser que consigamos una oleada repentina de voluntarios. El modo más fácil de tener éxito en conseguir una traducción es pedir la ayuda de alguien que puede hacerlo. Realmente tratamos de traducir mensajes si alguien nos pregunta. Terechu, Ledo, y Bob han sido muy servicial en ayudarme con la traducción numerosas veces.

Bob ha comenzado un hilo aquí para aquel objetivo:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1203
Nos extraña que nadie ha aceptado la oferta de Bob.

¿Finalmente, qué hace la traducción de tan difícil?
La capacidad de leer un texto en otra lengua es bastante difícil; la traducción de ello requiere mucho más habilidad, tiempo, y atención cuidadosa. Es similar a la diferencia entre la capacidad de entender algo que lees y la capacidad de explicar lo que has leído a otra persona.

Anoche gasté aproximadamente 7 horas traduciendo los mensajes de Mafalda y Carlos. ¿Por qué exige tanto tiempo? Hay muchos motivos. Uno es que muchas palabras individuales tienen una variedad de significados. Es a veces difícil decidir cual significado se emplea en una frase particular. A veces la frase usa expresiones que no están en el diccionario, lo que realmente complica el proceso. También, la traducción es difícil para muchos de nosotros porque nuestra segunda lengua es todavía un idioma extranjero. No hemos tenido el placer de años de escuchar, hablar, leer, y la escribir este lengua. Entonces pequeñas cosas como la omisión de acentos, palabras deletreadas, y pensamientos incompletos lo hacen aún más difícil para hacer una intérpretación. No entiendo mucho el humor, los insultos, el argot. Seguramente quiero mejorar estas capacidades. Tomé una clase el otoño pasado para este motivo, pero es muy difícil alcanzar aquel nivel de fluidez si se usa la lengua sólo media jornada y de gran distancia.

Déjeme darle un ejemplo del mensaje de Mafalda encima. (No me meto con Mafalda. Fácilmente podría haber escogido también varios pasos del mensaje de Carlos o cualquiera de un número de mensajes en el foro. Esto es solamente un ejemplo.)

Mafalda escribió ... wrote:
En cuanto al comentario de Eli, a mi los colorines tambien me gustan, pero estamos hablando de historias de hace 100 años, las fotos eran en blanco y negro y eso no tiene réplica, si que hecho en falta imágenes, humor, en algunos casos comprensión, preguntas


Esto es una frase con varias ideas. Tuve problemas uniendo los puntos. No sé si trato con acentos omitidos, transiciones omitidos, palabras deletreadas, o mi propio estupidez. Obviamente, no se las traería tanto si yo fuera hablante nativo. Es frustrante. Las palabras todos tienen sentido, pero sólo puedo adivinar a lo loco sobre lo que este frase quiere decir. (¡Eh!, si puedes echarme una mano, por favor hazlo! Me alegré arreglarlo.)
En mi traducción original, puse ... wrote:
As for Eli's commentary, to I also like bright colors, but we are speaking about stories from 100 years ago, the photos were in black and white and it [Elí's comment ??] does not have a reply if there are in fact missing images, humor, in many cases comprehension, questions.

Elí (en el mensaje siguiente) ha traducido esta frase un tanto distintamente. ¡Menos mal suya tiene sentido! He añadido corchetes para ideas que alcanza más allá de lo que (como entiendo yo) en realidad escribió Mafalda, para mostrar el grado de interpretación que puede ser necesario en una traducción útil.
En su traducción, como escribió abajo, Elí escribió ... wrote:
As for Eli's comentary, I too enjoy the [splattering of] colors, but [in this case] we are concerned with stories of 100 [plus] years ago. [Back then] pictures were all [sepia] and there is no reproducing [their emotional effect], no doubt [sometimes] there is a lack of images and humor [in the posts], often times understanding as well as asking [for clarification].

Resumen
Sí, entendemos la frustración. Lo sentimos, también. Realmente queremos traducir los mensajes. Tres personas no pueden hacerlo todo. Si quieres que alguien traduzca un mensaje, por favor díganos por correo electrónico o por el hilo que Bob comenzó:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1203
Postes concisos y claros son más fáciles traducir y así tienen mayor probabilidad ser traducidos (sin necesidad de preguntar).

[Art: añadí una traducción de Elí y un comentario mio.]


Last edited by Art on Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Eli
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimamente no he tenido tiempo para escribir o leer mucho, hay un mensaje de Asturico que me toma ya dos dias en leer y aun no termino. Sin embargo quiero comentar sobre esto "Anoche gasté aproximadamente 7 horas traduciendo los mensajes de Mafalda y Carlos. ¿Por qué exige tanto tiempo? Hay muchos motivos. Uno es que muchas palabras individuales tienen una variedad de significados. Es a veces difícil decidir cual significado se emplea en una frase particular. A veces la frase usa expresiones que no están en el diccionario, lo que realmente complica el proceso. También..." Me parece que al traducir el traductor debe traducir la intencion del autor no las palabras. Por ejemplo si digo en ingles "She's so cool" y tradusco las palabras al castellano se leeria "Ella es tan fria" cuando lo que el autor quizo decir fue 'Ella es tan bacan' aunque la jerga 'bacan' talvez no se entienda en todas partes. Se me ocurre que la manera de traducir es leer el mensaje y despues escribir el mismo mensaje en tus propias palabras de esa manera traduces lo que tu como traductor entendiste lo que el autor quizo decir.

Quote:
En cuanto al comentario de Eli, a mi los colorines tambien me gustan, pero estamos hablando de historias de hace 100 años, las fotos eran en blanco y negro y eso no tiene réplica, si que hecho en falta imágenes, humor, en algunos casos comprensión, preguntas


Yo lo traduciria de esta manera:
Quote:
As for Eli's comentary, I too enjoy the splatering of colors, but in this case we are concerned with stories of 100 plus years ago. Back then pictures were all sepia and there is no reproducing their emotional effect, no doubt sometimes there is a lack of images and humor in the posts, often times understanding as well as asking for clarification


Las palabras no son las mismas, pero me parece que traduce lo que el autor quizo decir.

y ahora para agregar mi granito de arena al tema, el traducir puede ser muy simpatico si se hace de vez en cuando, pero como todo si uno se ve obligado a traducir los mensages se convierte en un trabajo bastante pesado, tanto es asi que a pesar de que entiendo lo importante que es el traducir los mensajes con frecuencia ni siquiera tradusco los propios.


-----------

;-)
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Art
Site Admin


Joined: 17 Feb 2003
Posts: 4475
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Elí, I think we agree and we're saying much the same thing. Each word can have many meanings. The way those words are used together, the context, creates the overall meaning of a sentence. So, as you say, the task is to determine (sometimes by guessing) what the original author wanted to express, and then express that in the other language. I do, however, try to reproduce the original argument in much the same manner as the original so that I'm less likely to introduce my own biases.

And, boy, are you right about translating being a heavy burden. I sometimes write a message and wait a day to post it because I don't have time to translate it immediately.

Your translation of Mafalda's sentence makes more sense. I'll add that to my translation. Thanks!

-----------------

Sí, Elí, creo que estamos de acuerdo y que decimos casí la misma. Cada palabra puede tener muchos significados. La forma en que se usan estas palabras juntas, el contexto, crea el sentido global de una frase. Entonces, como dijiste, la tarea es determinar (algunas veces por adivinar) lo qué el autor original quería decir, y entonces expresarlo en la otra lengua. Sin embargo, intento reproducir el razonamiento original en la misma forma en alto grado para que hay menos probabilidad de introducir una parcialidad mia.

Y, claro, tienes razón que el traducir puede ser pesado. De vez y cuando escribo un mensaje pero espero un día ponerlo porque no tengo tiempo traducirlo inmediatamente.

Tu traducción de la frase de Mafalda tiene más sentido. Voy a añadirlo a mi traducción. ¡Gracias!
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Mafalda



Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 257
Location: España

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

¡ HOLA A TODO@S !

¡ Ufffffffffff !: no se por donde empezar, lo primero decirle a Art que le hechabamos de menos, y lo segundo, que no era mi intención destapar la caja de los truenos, lo siento. Crying or Very sad

Lo de Leto... que voy a decir...fue bonito mientras duró, pero yo ya sabia de antemano que duraría poco. En cualquier caso, me consta que ella tambien disfrutó trabajando con Art, y que la experincia le reportó a ella tambien algúna satisfacción.

En cuanto a la traducción de los posts, aunque me haya enfadado con Eli en alguna ocasión porque no traduce los suyos, (él, como es un "cachondo mental" me lo consiente Wink)realmente, no se trata de que espere que todo se traduzca, ¡ ni mucho menos !, a ver, soy consciente de que mi receta del "pote de berzas" o la disertación que puse a continuación acerca de la mismas berzas, son infumables, nadie se va a molestar en traducirlas, son posts muy largos, y seguramente no interesan a casi nadie, Leto me lo decia "es que eres un poco plasta"
Sin embargo, el otro dia, puse esta llamada en este hilo:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1245
Quote:
PARA ART Y EL EQUIPO DE TRADUCTORES :
Seria muy importante que se tradujeran los posts de Roberto, personalmente, hace casi 30 años que falto de Castrillón, y logicamente he perdido muchos contactos y es bastante casual que haya conseguido esta información, sin embargo, me consta que en Castrillón hay bastante gente que visita esta página con regularidad, pero que los textos en inglés, sencillamente se los saltan. Esta gente de Castrillon, han vivido siempre alli, y lógicamente conocen a casi todo el mundo.

Al cabo de dos dias, Roberto escribia este mensaje:
Quote:
Publicado: Lun Feb 13, 2006 2:32 am Asunto: Translation please
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hola,
Could I get a translation on the last two posts by Manzanuca and Mafalda.
Thank you,
Roberto

............ y hasta hoy.

Los mensajes de Roberto estàn en dos hilos, el mencionado anteriormente y este:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1237

Esto es lo que me cuesta trabajo entender, los posts de Roberto continuan sin traducir, eso, y la falta de curiosidad, y me explico, en el ultimo de mis posts hay un error de cálculo importante, Pues bien, a nadie le ha picado la curiosidad acerca de ello, nadie me ha corregido ni me ha preguntado nada, claro, que el único interesado (Roberto) aun no se ha enterado.

En otras ocasiónes, en medio de un debate muy acalorado, alguien pide por este mismo conducto una traducción, y para cuando la traducción llega, el debate ya está muerto y enterrado. Esto da mucha rabia, pero tampoco tiene mayor importancia.

Y finalmente, podria citar un monton de ocasiones en las que me llamó la atención que nadie hiciese ninguna pregunta acerca de lo expuesto, por eso hablo de falta de curiosidad.

Quizás la solución de Bob sea mas eficaz, pero para los que somos un poco analfabetos en esto de la informática, es mas complicada, o al menos a mi me lo parece.

-----------------
trans. Art

Hello, everyone!

Whew! Where to begin? The first thing to [I want to] say to Art is that we were missing him, and the second thing is that it was not my intention to open a box of fireworks. I'm sorry. Crying or Very sad

About Leto ... What can I say ... it was nice while it lasted, but I already knew in advance that wouldn't last long. In any case, it is clear to me that she also enjoyed working with Art, and that the experience also gave her some satisfaction.

As for the translation of the posts, though I have gotten angry with Elí on some occasions because he does not translate his (because he's "crazy but likeable" ["cachondo mental"] he allows me to get away with this Wink), but I'm not really talking about expecting that everything will be translated. No, much less! Let's see.... I'm aware that my recipe for "pote de berzas" [cabbage soup, more or less] or the dissertation that I posted later about those same berzas [a cabbage-like vegetable] are unreadable [literally: unsmokable]. Nobody is going to bother to translate them. They are very long posts, and surely they are interesting to almost nobody. Leto tells me, "It's because you're a bit of a pain in the neck [plasta]." Nevertheless, another day, I put this call in this thread:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1245

Quote:
[trans. Art] FOR ART AND THE TEAM OF TRANSLATORS:
It would be very important that someone translate Robert's posts. Personally, I've been gone from Castrillón for almost for 30 years and, as could be expected, I have lost many contacts and it's by good luck that I have obtained this information. Nevertheless, me is clear that there are enough people in Castrillón who visit this page regularly. But these texts in English, they will simply skip over. These people of Castrillon have lived always there and, logically, they know to almost everyone.


Two days ago, Roberto wrote this message:
Quote:
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: Translation please
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hola,

Could I get a translation on the last two posts by Manzanuca and Mafalda.

Thank you,
Roberto

............ and [it's still the same] up until today.

The messages of Roberto are in two threads, the one mentioned before and this one:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1237

This is what I find it hard to understand: Roberto's posts remain untranslated, that, and the lack of curiosity, and I'll explain, in the last one of my posts there is an important miscalculation. Well, okay, so it didn't pique anybody's curiosity, nobody has corrected me nor has asked anything me. Clearly, the only one interested (Roberto) still hasn't gotten the message [i.e., he can't read it].

On other occasions, in the midst of a heated discussion, someone asked for a translation through this same channel [by writing in that thread in the forum], and when the translation was done, the discussion was already dead and buried. This really is really annoying, although it's not all that important.

And finally, I could cite a mountain of times in which I've noticed that no one has asked any questions about what was stated. That's why I talk about a lack of curiosity.

Perhaps Bob's solution would be more effective, but for those of us who are a little computer-illiterate, it's more complicated or at least it seems that way to me.
_________________

"Begin your day with a smile, and you will see how entertaining it is to go about your day out of tune with the whole world."
_________________
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Terechu
Moderator


Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 1557
Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mafalda, como ya explicó Art, los traductores somos voluntarios. Hablando en plata: traducimos lo que podemos, cuando podemos y como podemos porque ahora mismo somos exactamente tres. Traducir un texto de 30 líneas puede llevar más de una hora. Cuando se juntan 10 mensajes de más de 30 líneas, comprenderás que es imposible, ya que ninguno de los tres nos dedicamos a esto en exclusiva. A veces nos ponemos enfermos, marchamos de vacaciones o tenemos visita y estamos unos días sin poder traducir nada.
Hubo mucho voluntario entusiasta, pero cuando ven el volumen de trabajo que es y que no reporta más beneficio que la satisfacción de mantener vivos los debates, pues se aburren y desaparecen.
También hay mucha gente que sabe más inglés o español de lo que parece y simplemente pasan de escribir el mensaje en los dos idiomas. Como comprenderás, si a ellos no les importa que todos puedan entender su mensaje, pues tendrán que esperar a que les toque el turno.
---------------------------------------------------------

Mafalda, as Art already pointed out, the translators are volunteers. To say it bluntly: we translate as much as we can, when we can and any way we can, because right now there are exactly 3 of us. Translating a 30 line text can take as much as one hour. You will understand that whenever 10 messages of more than 30 lines pile up the task is impossible, as none of us three does this exclusively. We sometimes get sick, go on vacation or have people staying over and can't do any translating for several days.
There have been many enthusiastic volunteers over time, but when they see the amount of work it entails and that it fails to bring any other reward than the satisfaction of keeping the debates lively, they just get bored and drop out.
There are also some who understand or write English or Spanish much better than they admit and just don't bother to write it in both languages. You will understand that if they don't care whether or not everybody has been able to understand their message, they will have to wait their turn to be translated.
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